Douglas Luiz

[Mazrim]

7 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

I think he's a natural 8 and not a 6. Unless he is given more licence to play box to box I don't see us getting the best from him. I think he has more to offer in the final third and we aren't tapping into it. 

Its because until Nakamba hit some form we just haven't had one for years. Luiz is the only of our 8s who can conceivably play 6, and at times he's done a great job, especially when you consider how young he still is.

[Chine]

6 hours ago, WallisFrizz said:

I’m starting to care less whether he signs the contract, when he’s good he’s excellent but can be poor. There’s got to be more consistent midfielders out there. 

Don’t agree , if he wants to stay we need to extend his contract asap , class act

[sheepyvillian]

I thought he had one of his better games last night. Used the ball well for most of the game and made some positive runs with the ball at his feet. 

[gwi1890]

11 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

I thought he had one of his better games last night. Used the ball well for most of the game and made some positive runs with the ball at his feet. 

That part of his game isn’t the problem, he’s just to passive in defensive duties.

[DaveAV1]

10 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

I thought he had one of his better games last night. Used the ball well for most of the game and made some positive runs with the ball at his feet. 

I thought he was a bit off it to be honest. I agree he did some good stuff but too many wayward passes. SJM was similar, definitely something the team needs to work on in general. 

[AndyM3000]

I'd like to see him getting around the box. He scored a couple of screamers right off the bat for us and barely had a shot since.

[Rolta]

Some of moments when he dispossessed the United players were the definition of picking their pockets. He did it a few times. I mainly only watched the second half because of work, but he was great from what I could see. I like him a lot. I think he would benefit from a quality DM to play alongside.

[sheepyvillian]

3 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I thought he was a bit off it to be honest. I agree he did some good stuff but too many wayward passes. SJM was similar, definitely something the team needs to work on in general. 

He made some good interceptions and harried their players into making mistakes a few times, and I'm not his biggest fan, but credit where it's due, imo. 

[gwi1890]

2 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I thought he was a bit off it to be honest. I agree he did some good stuff but too many wayward passes. SJM was similar, definitely something the team needs to work on in general. 

The wayward passes definitely something we need to work on but when things came of we played lovely football, difference between McGinn and JJ to Luiz is they actually hustle for 50/50 and tackle are they “destroyers” of course not but they have a bit of tenacity about them , Luiz is great when we’re attempting to “get out” he is a nice outlet to beat the press but he’s incredibly lightweight it’s alarming how weak he is physically.

[avfc1982am]

Dougie's proper in love.. Just seen a tik tok with him and Lehman lol. Sorry cant attach as file size too large.

[Adam2003]

On 11/01/2022 at 07:31, Mazrim said:

He'll enjoy linking up with Coutinho too

Excited to see this.

[cyrusr]

One thing with Luiz that I think has been forgotten is that after playing pretty much every game last season he went straight to Copa America right up to the final and then he immediately went to Japan for the Olympics. He then only had 1 or 2 weeks break after that. What we could be seeing is that he is very tired and might actually need a rest. 

It might also be just a little drop in form but it is clear that there is a very good player, one that will certainly benefit from having Gerrard as a manager. 

[sidcow]

I wonder if he'll be encouraged to sign a new contract with Coutinho about the place? He's surely one of his heroes? 

[A'Villan]

On 07/01/2022 at 02:59, TRO said:

I find those comments selective.

Firstly you don't have to be a limited player, to be a DM, that in itself is a falsehood....thats if you meant it like that?

secondly, you fail to mention the limited abilities of Luiz playing in the No 6 role....and I accept that is open to Interpretation, but in my opinion, it exists.

I understand the game is all about scoring more goals than your opponent, so offensive play does secure the discerning eye that bit more.....but if you ignore the importance of how to defend, which includes playing and orgainising off the ball, trophies will be a pipe dream.

defending might be a necessary evil to some....but those that pick up the trophies, seem to have an appreciation of its virtues.

Will write you a better more engaging reply when I can later today or tomorrow, but I was definitely not insinuating that a DM be limited in any capacity. The role by virtue is predominantly about protecting the back four and nullifying opposition attacks before they get into threatening territory, as well as winning it back in areas that are ideal in transition and offer the team opportunities to threaten with their own play, ideally with opposition on the back foot.

When we are discussing deploying a DM though, the role that player assumes is relevant to the team formation and tactics. Currently we don't necessarily need a pure DM is what I'm saying. And while it is always a good thing to have great choice of options, signing a DM that we don't end up using is a waste.

Edited January 13, 2022 by A'Villan

[tomav84]

19 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

Dougie's proper in love.. Just seen a tik tok with him and Lehman lol. Sorry cant attach as file size too large.

i know. those two are proper cute together

[TRO]

9 hours ago, A'Villan said:

Will write you a better more engaging reply when I can later today or tomorrow, but I was definitely not insinuating that a DM be limited in any capacity. The role by virtue is predominantly about protecting the back four and nullifying opposition attacks before they get into threatening territory, as well as winning it back in areas that are ideal in transition and offer the team opportunities to threaten with their own play, ideally with opposition on the back foot.

When we are discussing deploying a DM though, the role that player assumes is relevant to the team formation and tactics. Currently we don't necessarily need a pure DM is what I'm saying. And while it is always a good thing to have great choice of options, signing a DM that we don't end up using is a waste.

I hear what you are saying.....but I don't understand the thinking of what a pure DM is......To me you are either a DM or you're are not.

I have a suspicion here, that this debate is centred around the Interpretation of what a CDM is and what we all look for in one.....and until that is agreed upon, I guess we will all just argue the point.

On another note......The system that a manager chooses, many factors are considered, but one of those factors, is the type, quality of players he has on his books.....If we haven't got a quality CDM ( Marv/Luiz are debatable in terms of quality) then a system could well be used to appear without one....No other choice

However, I will remind you, it doesn't matter what system or set up or tactics are employed...The basics have to be employed, it always comes back to basics......one of those basics is winning the ball back, recovery, turnover, call it what you will.....but without the ball you can have the best players in the world waiting for it....and it will be rendered useless.

Now if some folk say, well they all do a bit of it.....maybe, but during a game, when tiredness, creeps in, it drops off...." well its not my responsibility, echo's in the heads of some of the lesser driven players.

Someone has to be responsible, for such a crucial task.

I hear the "Modern Game " being rolled out at times and "we don't play like that any more"....."you can't just clog your way through a game"....and all the other false narratives, that derive from a request for a dedicated CDM

I could list c 25 CDM's who are quality footballers ( all attached to top clubs, which would suggest they feel a need for them) and Yves Bissouma is one.....so where this notion, that some peddle associating them with cloggers, is beyond me.

I have always believed a midfield has to have diversity....3 players with varying attributes to create the whole......If you have too many the same or similar, jobs don't get done sufficiently only partly.....and thats where, I think we are...decent players, too samey

I think SG can see this and will fix it, in time....just like he can the full backs are not up to the top half of the table quality...and has moved in the market.

I will be interested, to see your point, because you always present eloquently, analytically and respectfully.

[A'Villan]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

I hear what you are saying.....but I don't understand the thinking of what a pure DM is......To me you are either a DM or you're are not.

I have a suspicion here, that this debate is centred around the Interpretation of what a CDM is and what we all look for in one.....and until that is agreed upon, I guess we will all just argue the point.

On another note......The system that a manager chooses, many factors are considered, but one of those factors, is the type, quality of players he has on his books.....If we haven't got a quality CDM ( Marv/Luiz are debatable in terms of quality) then a system could well be used to appear without one....No other choice

However, I will remind you, it doesn't matter what system or set up or tactics are employed...The basics have to be employed, it always comes back to basics......one of those basics is winning the ball back, recovery, turnover, call it what you will.....but without the ball you can have the best players in the world waiting for it....and it will be rendered useless.

Now if some folk say, well they all do a bit of it.....maybe, but during a game, when tiredness, creeps in, it drops off...." well its not my responsibility, echo's in the heads of some of the lesser driven players.

Someone has to be responsible, for such a crucial task.

I hear the "Modern Game " being rolled out at times and "we don't play like that any more"....."you can't just clog your way through a game"....and all the other false narratives, that derive from a request for a dedicated CDM

I could list c 25 CDM's who are quality footballers ( all attached to top clubs, which would suggest they feel a need for them) and Yves Bissouma is one.....so where this notion, that some peddle associating them with cloggers, is beyond me.

I have always believed a midfield has to have diversity....3 players with varying attributes to create the whole......If you have too many the same or similar, jobs don't get done sufficiently only partly.....and thats where, I think we are...decent players, too samey

I think SG can see this and will fix it, in time....just like he can the full backs are not up to the top half of the table quality...and has moved in the market.

I will be interested, to see your point, because you always present eloquently, analytically and respectfully.

My apologies, @TRO, I wanted to give this post a big thumbs up, however I've spent the day checking in and out of the forum, and I've spent my like rations.

And before I get carried away talking football, thank you for offering me the kind words, I know life is far from all sunshine and rainbows, and I don't expect it to be such, but genuine affirmations are always welcome in my neck of the woods. I do make a concerted effort to be respectful always and if I can to offer insight or provoke some value for all the hot air I offer! The esteem is mutual I might add, but for now, football.

Agree wholeheartedly, as you've put hammer to the nails head with precision and vision. This discussion on what qualifies as a CDM is very much up to interpretation and the meaning we assign.

I will have to edit my post and return to this later on, but I will say that while I think you are so right in identifying what is at the essence of good football, and by that I mean, good football being the ability to influence a contest enough to achieve a desired outcome, ultimately a win, but there's so much that can happen in 90 minutes before that win is awarded. Largely it comes down to winning the contests that are won through determination and unrelenting tenacity. Effort and energy.

There is a saying in basketball, offense brings in the crowds, but defence wins championships. I've looked into this, statistical analysis and reporters ideas too, as well as reflecting the idea against my 21 years playing in Australia's top divisions. It's true. 

And I think that is so often neglected because being a threat offensively is glorified as it is often more aesthetic in team sport, but also from a violence and survival POV we think might is right because there's no use dying, so best be the one who goes on the offensive. 

Misconception. Martial arts and the combative training and principles it teaches are largely about embodying a protective discipline as opposed to being a predatory lethal weapon. It is called the defence force not the attack force in military matters.

Forgive the off topic rant.

Edit: priorities right? The CDM role was largely a product of the modern game, even though the ability to win the ball back has and will always be invaluable, the deployment of a designated CDM has been introduced as the tactics and individual skills have developed and progressed morphing the game into a more refined and strategic one.

For example, in England it was often a 4-4-2 with two box to box midfielders, winger on each flank, and two strikers.

It was until we saw the likes of Xabi Alonso, Makelele, and the like that we saw how effective an out and out defensively oriented midfielder could be in seeing that opponent opportunities were either thwarted in areas of the pitch ideal for ones team to capitalise and score in transition, or at least go along way to seeing that if an opposition attack went beyond the front line of defence, then the final line would be much better positioned to nullify.

To be continued..

Edited January 13, 2022 by A'Villan

[Zhan_Zhuang]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Misconception. Martial arts and the combative training and principles it teaches are largely about embodying a protective discipline as opposed to being a predatory lethal weapon. It is called the defence force not the attack force in military matters.

For sure, I have trained martial arts for over thirty-five years and have taught it for the last eight years. I'm very much of the opinion it is about self-defense and not fighting.

"Discretion is the better part of valour".

Sorry, off-topic I know but it's not often one can engage in martial commentary on VT.

[tinker]

9 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

For sure, I have trained martial arts for over thirty-five years and have taught it for the last eight years. I'm very much of the opinion it is about self-defense and not fighting.

You could have just learnt to run.

Doug is a very frustrating player , he can look good but he can also look hopeless all in the space of 5 minutes. He's to inconsistent for us to push on and he's had enough time to remove the lapses in his game and they still keep happening. I would cash in .

[Laughable Chimp]

In between the Targett thread and this one, I can't believe I'm finding myself wanting to defend these guys for once. You guys see a shiny new toy(Digne, Bissouma) and immediately turn on the old one.