Douglas Luiz

[Zatman]

22 minutes ago, sne said:

It's not like the other clubs ahead of us are just going to fold over and give up.

City, Plop, Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs and even Leicester and West Ham have years of progress on us and the difference in revenue is monumental. Some of those clubs we will never catch how much our owners might want to. Even if they wanted to put billions into the club they would not be allowed to.

So how are we going to get into Europe, let alone the CL where you actually start making money and can attract the Kovacic's and Ndidi's of the world. Guess our chances might improve in a few years when they start handing out free places to the big brand clubs, but it might actually make it even harder.

Add in Newcastle who will probably be spending big in future markets

[sne]

Just now, Zatman said:

Add in Newcastle who will probably be spending big in future markets

If they are allowed to and the owners are set on using the club in that way then that is obviously a game changer for everyone yeah.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, sne said:

Not sure I get your Brentford point in regards to Europe but no matter.

To begin with we need to triple our revenue to get anywhere near Spurs and Arsenal, and Spurs are just gonna get richer due to their new stadium. Sure we can catch West Ham and Leicester from season to season. That'll give us 7th-8th and maybe a spot in the Conference League. We might also win a cup some day and get in that way. Doing it on a regular basis due to league places thou...

No, it was meant in regards to you saying others teams are in front of us, due to our time challenging, or words to that effect......other teams like Brentford and Leeds are on our coat tails....and its debatable if they should be.

don't get bogged down in excuses, our manager is trying to move away from it at BMH.

[sne]

As always I never understand the actual meaning in your posts so I'll just leave it here as we've gone OT anyway.

 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, sne said:

Not sure I get your Brentford point in regards to Europe but no matter.

To begin with we need to triple our revenue to get anywhere near Spurs and Arsenal, and Spurs are just gonna get richer due to their new stadium. Sure we can catch West Ham and Leicester from season to season. That'll give us 7th-8th and maybe a spot in the Conference League. We might also win a cup some day and get in that way. Doing it on a regular basis due to league places thou...

We won't win anything, if we don't compete in games......Like the last 2 and the Wolves game, not to mention, Watford.

[IrishVilla10]

Luiz is another midfielder of ours who’s fell victim to being used incorrectly for two seasons now. We saw what he can do against city, why don’t we let him play there every week. Marvs injury has forced hun back into that role which I’ve never really rated him in. I think he lacks pace too. I hope we get a DM in this window, I feel like it’s been the cause of so many problems for us and hopefully it’s the solution. If he does want away then let him go, but I do think there’s a really good player waiting to be unlocked in him 

[Tom13]

4 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Luiz is another midfielder of ours who’s fell victim to being used incorrectly for two seasons now. We saw what he can do against city, why don’t we let him play there every week. Marvs injury has forced hun back into that role which I’ve never really rated him in. I think he lacks pace too. I hope we get a DM in this window, I feel like it’s been the cause of so many problems for us and hopefully it’s the solution. If he does want away then let him go, but I do think there’s a really good player waiting to be unlocked in him 

He was unreal in the DM role post lockdown 1.0. But he is generally very hit and miss there. Bit further forward, he excels.

[A'Villan]

As long as he's not deployed as a sole DM then he is up to the challenge in my view.

Played as a holding midfielder or even a volante he's fine, as long as he's not solely responsible for disrupting and thwarting opposition play.

While I think alongside at least one other deeper lying midfielder he's capable defensively, it would also be a waste of his ability on the ball to have him play solely as a DM.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

As long as he's not deployed as a sole DM then he is up to the challenge in my view.

Played as a holding midfielder or even a volante he's fine, as long as he's not solely responsible for disrupting and thwarting opposition play.

While I think alongside at least one other deeper lying midfielder he's capable defensively, it would also be a waste of his ability on the ball to have him play solely as a DM.

so who is then?

[ozvillafan]

If Coutinho comes - I suspect Luiz will be more likely to stay.

[A'Villan]

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

so who is then?

It depends on the tactics and formation.

You could say Nakamba can fill this role adequately, and he has at times. However he is limited on the ball and that's why he is a designated DM mostly. 

Sanson, McGinn and Luiz all have ability going forward and without the ball. This allows us a freedom to assign roles in the moment as play unfolds. Each player is given license to assume a role appropriate to what is happening on the field in that moment.

Liverpool have become one of the best teams worldwide and won titles and silverware representing the pinnacle of the game. Their 4-3-3 has had a midfield three of players capable at both ends, even though either Henderson or Fabinho play a deeper role generally. The midfield three are all competent on the ball.

Same went for the Barcelona team that annihilated world football. Busquets could and would support attacks where necessary and Xavi and Iniesta were both incredibly masterful on the ball. Even Mascherano was a decent short passer.

For every moment a team holds possession, is one more moment the opposition is guaranteed not to score, and is forced to react to the tempo and tactics of the team in possession. 

"The ball doesn't have lungs" as the Brazilian adage says. 

[gilbertoAVFC]

People don't get that Luiz is indispensable as both the current manager and previous ones played him to come out and collect the ball from the defenders - no-one else in the squad, bar Sanson, can do this.

If you are going to play like that, which we are, we cannot do well playing Nakamba there - the defenders don't trust him and for good reason. Luiz and Sanson are the only "press-proof" players we have. One has been a crock for ages, the other has only got better in that time. Luiz gives us balance.

12 hours ago, TRO said:

so who is then?

The pressers??? The DM does not press if he doesn't have anyone alongside him or covering, otherwise where do you end up? The attackers running at the defence. This ain't the 1980s.

[KentVillan]

12 minutes ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

This ain't the 1980s.

Careful saying that on here

[TRO]

18 hours ago, A'Villan said:

It depends on the tactics and formation.

You could say Nakamba can fill this role adequately, and he has at times. However he is limited on the ball and that's why he is a designated DM mostly. 

Sanson, McGinn and Luiz all have ability going forward and without the ball. This allows us a freedom to assign roles in the moment as play unfolds. Each player is given license to assume a role appropriate to what is happening on the field in that moment.

Liverpool have become one of the best teams worldwide and won titles and silverware representing the pinnacle of the game. Their 4-3-3 has had a midfield three of players capable at both ends, even though either Henderson or Fabinho play a deeper role generally. The midfield three are all competent on the ball.

Same went for the Barcelona team that annihilated world football. Busquets could and would support attacks where necessary and Xavi and Iniesta were both incredibly masterful on the ball. Even Mascherano was a decent short passer.

For every moment a team holds possession, is one more moment the opposition is guaranteed not to score, and is forced to react to the tempo and tactics of the team in possession. 

"The ball doesn't have lungs" as the Brazilian adage says. 

Don't disagree with that at all.....but that is precisely, what I have been protesting.

Where this notion of a DM being limited has come from,I don't know......The proposal is to get one who isn't limited and can play out from the back.

There are 3 types of Midfielder....Destroyer, DLP or Volante.......or Defensive- central - Attacking.

When you're at the upper end of the food chain, many of them with more attributes, can do a bit of everthing, like Busquests, Roy Keane, Patrick Viera.

When we played with Jedinak and Whelan, they were the ones who was limited.....We have moved on from that, but it doesn't mean that the task of securing the ball back, goes amiss.....Someone or some players have to have that responsibility.

You say Nakamba is limited on the ball, I think Luiz is limited in getting the ball....so we are as best burnt as scolded......each player offers different things and each player has differing weaknesses....albeit Attacking & Defensive differences.

I think Liverpool is not a very good example, because Fabinho and Henderson have good ball recovery attributes......but here again, we are talking better quality, and that is precisely, what I am advocating.

Nididi and Bissouma, are not shy on the ball, that's what I am proposing....but it seems to me, that the interpretation by some is that a DM is a clogger or a sub standard player.....I think that is a wrong assumption.

 

PS •       Rinus Michels........... It is an art in itself to compose a starting team, finding the balance between creative players and those with destructive powers, and between defence, construction and attack- never forgetting the quality of the opposition and the specific pressures of each match.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

13 hours ago, A'Villan said:

It depends on the tactics and formation.

You could say Nakamba can fill this role adequately, and he has at times. However he is limited on the ball and that's why he is a designated DM mostly. 

Sanson, McGinn and Luiz all have ability going forward and without the ball. This allows us a freedom to assign roles in the moment as play unfolds. Each player is given license to assume a role appropriate to what is happening on the field in that moment.

Liverpool have become one of the best teams worldwide and won titles and silverware representing the pinnacle of the game. Their 4-3-3 has had a midfield three of players capable at both ends, even though either Henderson or Fabinho play a deeper role generally. The midfield three are all competent on the ball.

Same went for the Barcelona team that annihilated world football. Busquets could and would support attacks where necessary and Xavi and Iniesta were both incredibly masterful on the ball. Even Mascherano was a decent short passer.

For every moment a team holds possession, is one more moment the opposition is guaranteed not to score, and is forced to react to the tempo and tactics of the team in possession. 

"The ball doesn't have lungs" as the Brazilian adage says. 

I find those comments selective.

Firstly you don't have to be a limited player, to be a DM, that in itself is a falsehood....thats if you meant it like that?

secondly, you fail to mention the limited abilities of Luiz playing in the No 6 role....and I accept that is open to Interpretation, but in my opinion, it exists.

I understand the game is all about scoring more goals than your opponent, so offensive play does secure the discerning eye that bit more.....but if you ignore the importance of how to defend, which includes playing and orgainising off the ball, trophies will be a pipe dream.

defending might be a necessary evil to some....but those that pick up the trophies, seem to have an appreciation of its virtues.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

People don't get that Luiz is indispensable as both the current manager and previous ones played him to come out and collect the ball from the defenders - no-one else in the squad, bar Sanson, can do this.

If you are going to play like that, which we are, we cannot do well playing Nakamba there - the defenders don't trust him and for good reason. Luiz and Sanson are the only "press-proof" players we have. One has been a crock for ages, the other has only got better in that time. Luiz gives us balance.

The pressers??? The DM does not press if he doesn't have anyone alongside him or covering, otherwise where do you end up? The attackers running at the defence. This ain't the 1980s.

• He may be indispensible, because we don't have an adequate No 6 fit with merchantable quality......but that is no argument......its just, needs must.
• Nakamba is the current no 6 when fit, so I don't accept your reasoning....SG has stuck with him, until his injury.
• I am not sure what a "press proof" player is, if there is such a thing, every player is pressable.....Sanson hasn't played enough games to be so judgmental.
• The attackers have been running at the defence,unhindered, Hence a new Manager has come in to stem the tide.
• The Modern game has many things derived from the 80' and 60's....so that is a moot point imo....4-3-3....4-2-3-1....3-4-3.....4-2-2-2.....5-3-2.....3-5-3....4-1-4-1....4-4-2......It can hardly be claimed to be a single entity this "modern game", because thats what mangers today set up with....so many things are similar, to times gone by,you just have to look for them......sure its faster today, less space to play in, etc.....but if you think there is nothing to learn from yesteryear in a mature sport.....you are kidding yourself.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by TRO

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

• He may be indispensible, because we don't have an adequate No 6 fit with merchantable quality......but that is no argument......its just, needs must.
• Nakamba is the current no 6 when fit, so I don't accept your reasoning....SG has stuck with him, until his injury.
• I am not sure what a "press proof" player is, if there is such a thing, every player is pressable.....Sanson hasn't played enough games to be so judgmental.
• The attackers have been running at the defence,unhindered, Hence a new Manager has come in to stem the tide.
• The Modern game has many things derived from the 80' and 60's....so that is a moot point imo....4-3-3....4-2-3-1....3-4-3.....4-2-2-2.....5-3-2.....3-5-3....4-1-4-1....4-4-2......It can hardly be claimed to be a single entity this "modern game", because thats what mangers today set up with....so many things are similar, to times gone by,you just have to look for them......sure its faster today, less space to play in, etc.....but if you think there is nothing to learn from yesteryear in a mature sport.....you are kidding yourself.

 

Absolutely nothing special about Luiz, for me. Far too ponderous at times.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

Absolutely nothing special about Luiz, for me. Far too ponderous at times.

I agree totally Sheepy but we need a better explanation as to why?

Luiz is an enigma for me.....but we need explanations to create credibility......that goes for them, that are pro Luiz, too.

Edited January 6, 2022 by TRO

[thunderball]

…..But you just know when he leaves he will blossom into a real star like Veretout, it’s bound to happen.

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I agree totally Sheepy but we need a better explanation as to why?

Luiz is an enigma for me.....but we need explanations to create credibility......that goes for them, that are pro Luiz, too.

Johnny Haynes would say, " I would always look around , in anticipation of getting the ball, to see where my teammates were and would know instantly who to give it too". Nigel Clough had the same quality, Speed of thought.  I don't see that much in our midfielders, hence the word " ponderous ".