peterms Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: Aren’t they by and large incredibly ill informed at every GE as well ? That’s kinda democracy for you But as I recall the wording for the referendum was changed at the suggestion of the electoral commission with the view of making it as simple as possible and then passed through parliament by everyone (except the SNP as per their standard MO to not vote for anything Tory ) Yes they are, but it's a far more general sounding out at a GE. In asking about a very specific proposition, it's reasonable to expect more, and more accurate, information. The precise wording of the question is not where the deception occurred. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, peterms said: Yes they are, but it's a far more general sounding out at a GE. In asking about a very specific proposition, it's reasonable to expect more, and more accurate, information. The precise wording of the question is not where the deception occurred. Again, that's democracy. Who was supposed to provide the accurate information? Government? Parliament? And what does it matter, considering that a racist biggot would have voted leave, an a scare all "we are gonna run out of food" vegan would have voted remain regardless of any information? This is democracy in its purest form and it hasn't passed the test here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted March 27, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, peterms said: Yes they are, but it's a far more general sounding out at a GE. In asking about a very specific proposition, it's reasonable to expect more, and more accurate, information. The precise wording of the question is not where the deception occurred. It was more the specificity of "Remain" which was completely clear, and the ambiguity of "Leave" which was entirely vague. It'd be like asking "Do you want cake?" With the options being "Chocolate cake" or "Yes". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, cyrusr said: What is it with Tories not making sure they have the numbers? Don’t they teach maths at Eton? So that's ten pieces of silver in total. Eight for me, two for you. Be careful the immigrants don't take one of yours. But if we only charged nine pieces of silver, there'd be more trade and we'd all be better off. I'd have eight, you could have one. Be careful the immigrants don't take yours. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, peterms said: The precise wording of the question is not where the deception occurred. Possibly , but with my post I was addressing the point about it being a “Bloody stupid question “ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: Possibly , but with my post I was addressing the point about it being a “Bloody stupid question “ I fear you've misinterpreted my post though. It's not the phrasing of the question I take issue with, it's asking a question where one answer is "leave things the same", and the other covers dozens of possible variations, many of which are completely at odds with each other. It was a stupid question to ask, I'm not bothered about the wording of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 27, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27, 2019 29 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: But as I recall the wording for the referendum was changed at the suggestion of the electoral commission with the view of making it as simple as possible Exactly - IT'S NOT A **** ING SIMPLE ISSUE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 27, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27, 2019 Some of us knew it wasn't a simple question. Shouted down, the argument made if its so complicated it must be bad, etc etc. I hope in the eventual inquiry about this, some people go to jail. Of course they won't, but you have to hope. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Actual headline at The Guardian. Quote Brexit Westminster is like the Crystal Maze on crystal meth And some gems in the text Quote The last sign of artificial intelligence in a Maybot is an awareness of inbuilt obsolescence. Quote The quantum Brexit had become ever more relative. And parliament was still left wondering quite what it had taken back control of as it had contrived to vote against everything. Bollocks to everything. The will of the people was to remain indefinitely in a tenth circle of hell. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/27/brexit-westminster-is-like-the-crystal-maze-on-crystal-meth You can read the one about Cluster-wotsit-ery there 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted March 28, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/27/brexit-westminster-is-like-the-crystal-maze-on-crystal-meth From the article: Quote What followed was yet more clusterf**kery. The ERG split, the splitters split from the splitters 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 8 hours ago, peterms said: The "people" couldn't decide either. That's the problem. You mean where the public were mislead by fool's like farage, Johnson and gove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 10 hours ago, Davkaus said: This really needs to be the end to the idea that the reason Labour aren't backing a second referendum is Jeremy Corbyn. Not only did he vote for it in the indicative votes, but this is not a list of Corbynites either. The only available conclusion from this list is that any other Labour leader would have been doing the same attempted party-management job over the last two years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 hours ago, peterms said: Yes, I think you have it wrong. The current votes are indicative. Unless I've misunderstood it, they don't rule things out or prevent options being posed again. They are testing out which options might secure a majority. Does the Speaker's ruling on not bringing back a similar motion apply to something which has been discussed as a purely indicative vote rather than determining policy? I assume not. What do you think? Voting to revoke at this point, like other options, is signalling. The Labour position, I think, is that this is an option, but not one of the most preferred. If that is their position, that is the signal they should give. The point of the votes was to establish the outcomes that were acceptable and unacceptable to MPs. That's why they were able to vote for as many, or as few of the options as they wanted. As for the whole "maybe the people in the party know a bit better than you do" shtick, perhaps they do. Or perhaps their strategy has them still lagging in popularity behind the worst Government in living memory and their leader enjoying the worst satisfaction ratings for a leader of the opposition since 1982. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 And they wonder why people have lost faith in politics and politicians. They're like a bunch of chickens in a hen house where no one has any idea what the hell is going on. "Take back control!!!11" They've really achieved that, haven't they? The only thing they're in control of is expensing the pump maintenance for their 2 million quid koi ponds. The whole world is laughing at our pathetic system and politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Funny that in the resulting GE the public won't be able to give us a majority either. Surely it'll just be a hung parliament. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 The biggest problem with a GE is that neither of the two main parties will have remain as part of their manifesto. Having half the country represented by the fricking Liberals is a joke. I live in a constituency that voted 54% remain in the referendum, but has and MP that voted in favor of No Deal in the indicative votes. A protest vote is as useful as broken glass bog roll so I may as well bin off voting for the current generation of politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Christ on a bike Mark Francois is an absolute moron. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, Straggler said: The biggest problem with a GE is that neither of the two main parties will have remain as part of their manifesto. Having half the country represented by the fricking Liberals is a joke. I live in a constituency that voted 54% remain in the referendum, but has and MP that voted in favor of No Deal in the indicative votes. A protest vote is as useful as broken glass bog roll so I may as well bin off voting for the current generation of politics. I think the Independent Group might suck up a few more remainers before any new GE ... possibly you might even get a breakaway leave party depending on how the rest of Brexit plays out Hung parliaments for the foreseeable future I'd imagine ... hope the bribe fund isn't cleared out by the DUP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 59 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: Funny that in the resulting GE the public won't be able to give us a majority either. Surely it'll just be a hung parliament. stupidly low turn out and a hung parliament that will definitely restore faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I think the Independent Group might suck up a few more remainers before any new GE ... possibly you might even get a breakaway leave party depending on how the rest of Brexit plays out Hung parliaments for the foreseeable future I'd imagine ... hope the bribe fund isn't cleared out by the DUP Despite the current mess I'd give a Tory majority decent odds, you have to factor in that they couldn't possibly run a worse campaign and manifesto this time round with a different leader, and I'm not sure Corbyn will generate quite the same support again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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