Team shape, tactics and personnel

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

What i'm thinking next:

 

[Villarocker]

Some personnel lacked bite yesterday. Neither of Kamara or Buendia committed a foul yesterday, in a game where we were losing 3-0 at half time - not a single foul! As a team, we were far too passive. We need a Guendouzi type of player in there to add a bit of steel. 

[DJBOB]

As a better visualization - here is how we are usually lined up in our attack. The 3box3 or 3223 or 325 or whatever variation they're calling it. There is some variability in where the exact positions are, but this is what I would use to describe the team. In defense and in build up, there's a mix of 4222 and 442 and then more defensive 622, 631, etc. but I'm going to focus on attacking a low block as that is what our most current problem is and not extrapolate too much for the City game.

I think you can see why Unai targeted an attacking/dribbling LB because the LB is going to provide the majority of the width and creativity in this set up. You can also see why he targeted a left-footed CF/winger type player as Bailey's form has been trending poorly and he has no natural replacements until Duran and Traore joined. Watkins is rare to lose his spot and probably a reason why Archer was loaned out as that would be the only position they would play in.

I would replace Digne with a more athletic defensive foil to Moreno so there's a mix there when needed to defend. Digne just doesn't work in this system as a defender or as an attacker - probably why it looked has unnatural for him. Duran has been brought in to be that CF/winger mix and I think he could work well - same with Traore - but I think Emery will target this as well hence the links to Nico Williams, Thuram, etc.

Buendia I think plays his best in that half space slot of the box provided he maintain his positioning. It allows him to build link up play and remain forward to have more games like Leicester/Southampton and less like City. I think the issue with Buendia is that in defense and in transition - he does not work well with Digne. Digne is too slow and too left footed to offer options as Buendia is not a traditional 'take them on' winger. I think it's no wonder Buendia and Coutinho have looked more dangerous with Moreno on their side despite the defensive worries. 

I don't think JJ is a natural fit for that box position. He's at his best looking forward and carrying the ball and too often he has to play with his back to the defender. This is the same thing I've seen with JJ before in that he doesn't seem to have a natural position. He's not the best at keeping the ball under pressure with his back to the opponent nor his passing crisp enough to be one touch and his forward passing is less progressive. But he is more defensively capable than Buendia so there's a compromise to make there. No wonder Unai wants Guendouzi because he would fit anywhere along the box midfield. Luiz I believe can play almost anywhere in that box but does best in that central pairing with Kamara. Kamara will keep his spot.

One of our biggest issues is at the back playing this system. As we saw City execute to perfection, the back 3 need to be very comfortable with the ball and passing the ball. Young is decent at it but Konsa plays it safe and often sells out both Mings and his CM's because he won't hit any switches or play passes into Buendia/JJ/Watkins. Mings takes too many touches and is conservative about his switching distribution. You can also see why Cash is struggling to get game because it is not a natural position for him. He may learn to play it as did Kyle Walker eventually, but that's not what he was bought for and is struggling to get game time. Depending on Diego's health, I think this is the other big target for Unai. 

So all in all - I think Digne needs immediate replacement personnel wise.

Next tier is Bailey, Konsa, JJ, and/or Young/Cash need incomings and will have to prove they are better than the incoming transfers.

I think the next tier list will be Mings and Buendia and they should at least operate on a rotational basis depending on the opponent.

The only mainstays will be Watkins, Luiz, Kamara, and Martinez.

Edited February 13, 2023 by DJBOB

[Steero113]

On 01/02/2023 at 14:07, flashingqwerty said:

Luiz the only one I'd keep, and probably as a squad player rather than starter

The early parts of the post were sort of OK, but this is where you lost me. 

[Steero113]

37 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

As we saw City execute to perfection, the back 3 need to be very comfortable with the ball and passing the ball.

I hate to inform you that Man City's CB's have collectively cocked up to be directly at fault for 4 goals in the last 5 games. 

Including our goal yesterday when a misplaced pass was intercepted by Duran leading to Watkins being slotted in. 

[DJBOB]

4 minutes ago, Steero113 said:

I hate to inform you that Man City's CB's have collectively cocked up to be directly at fault for 4 goals in the last 5 games. 

Including our goal yesterday when a misplaced pass was intercepted by Duran leading to Watkins being slotted in. 

Eh - it was well done until then. Complacency more than anything. 

Where tactics meet human error. 
 
Point being that these cross field switches allow this formation to exploit the winger 1v1s. Until we do that, it lets the defense have enough time to shuffle and set up. 

[TomC]

Anyone else find it interesting how much different our tactics were against Arsenal?

Early on, it seemed more like a 4-3-3 in defence rather than a 4-4-2 with Moreno going nowhere as far forward (probably pinned back by Saka) and both Coutinho and Buendia pressing. We seemed to press higher than we have been lately, too. After Duran came on, it looked more like a 4-5-1 in defence. And you never knew when Bouba or Doug might drop into the back line. After SG's rigid adherence to 4-3-3, it never ceases to amaze me how many variants Unai has and how fluidly we move between them.

Our number one weakness seems to be leaving men unmarked around the top of the 18. Both the 2nd and 3rd goals were like that. Zinchenko's goal reminded me so much of his old team's goal by Rodri in last year's finale...right inside the post from the 18. It seems like a leftover habit from the SG era.

 

[Philosopher]

Seems to me we are either trying to play at 200 miles an hour, or totally pedestrian. The players still haven't found that sweet spot where we are patient, yet moving the ball at a good tempo.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Philosopher

[sne]

It's one thing playing out of the back and inviting pressure to create space and openings to exploit. But playing the passes so soft that the guy receiving the ball is already closed down and has no short options to pass it on is not what Emery is intending I'm fairly sure.

Hopefully the back 5 will get tired of putting themselves in awkward situations and will start playing the ball more assertive and with some pace. That's when we will get more use out of this tactic. Not all of our players might be suited to this thou.

[CVByrne]

23 minutes ago, sne said:

It's one thing playing out of the back and inviting pressure to create space and openings to exploit. But playing the passes so soft that the guy receiving the ball is already closed down and has no short options to pass it on is not what Emery is intending I'm fairly sure.

Hopefully the back 5 will get tired of putting themselves in awkward situations and will start playing the ball more assertive and with some pace. That's when we will get more use out of this tactic. Not all of our players might be suited to this thou.

We just need a new RCB/RB and Carlos fit and firing. IF we have those additions we up our passing quality and passes under pressure. We lob a player like Guendouzi into the midfield and someone quality up along side Watkins. That's a big jump in terms of the team with the same tactics/set up

[villa4europe]

3 hours ago, M_Afro said:

I have noticed this too. I wonder if he is doing it because he is wary of the fans and their ability to turn quickly.

I know that some people don’t like to hear it but after 10 years or so of appalling senior director management prior to NSWE, our fans are at the end of their tether. There is an impatience, that although understandable, is deeply damaging to our performance. This is why we struggle at home as our away support has always been top level.

I don’t think Dean is a top coach (another unpopular opinion) but he managed to galvanise our support like no other. That created a powerful force that carried us from eleventh in the Championship to eleventh in the Premier League in two and a half seasons. At times during that run our whole club was totally united under Dean’s leadership. It was so powerful. I think a similar thing is happening at Newcastle at the moment. Sadly, although understandable, as things started to go wrong with Dean and then disastrous under SG the impatience of the fans returned.

I think that Unai can see this. Whenever we play out from the back you can hear the anxiety in the crowd and there’s always a good few people shouting to get the ball forward. It just doesn’t help and the anxiety spreads through the team. It will take time for Unai to really make a sustainable difference. Most fans can see this and will remain patient but unfortunately the impatient minority often make the most noise. We just need to trust the manager and get behind the team. If we do that, then our ceiling is seriously high.

Completely agree but would add that there's also an older generation of fans who just want the ball played out to pacey wingers as quickly as possible, almost like the MON days when we were exciting, not 100% sure about 81/82

My basic understanding is modern football is played by keeping the ball, slowing it down with triangles of passing, good movement ahead of the midfield* which pulls the opponent out of position and then you spring the trap and then speed the ball up to expose the gaps created, you're holding midfielder(s) see more of the ball than anyone else...Nope **** that, that's boring, get it wide, run at them and get it in the mixer

There's a large portion of fans that seem to remember the great wingers of the past leaving them out of touch with how football is now played, they don't have the patience for trying to play possession football let alone the confidence for it

Edit * that's usually villa pitfall, our movement isn't good enough

Edited February 26, 2023 by villa4europe

[PussEKatt]

Im one of the older generation of fans that prefer faster football.I must admit though that the whole squad is gradually improving ( individually and collectively ) since U.E took over.

[villa4europe]

After the last 12 years bar a couple under Smith I just want clearly identifiable styles and patterns of play paired with effort and work rate, I'm not too bothered what the brand is I just want a brand

For all the shit we happily gave Leeds and Bielsa they at least had that

I'm fed up of watching villa and struggling to see what it is we're actually trying to do

And I've got absolutely no doubt that next season under emery we will see exactly how he wants us to play

[Johnnyp]

4 hours ago, M_Afro said:

I have noticed this too. I wonder if he is doing it because he is wary of the fans and their ability to turn quickly.

I know that some people don’t like to hear it but after 10 years or so of appalling senior director management prior to NSWE, our fans are at the end of their tether. There is an impatience, that although understandable, is deeply damaging to our performance. This is why we struggle at home as our away support has always been top level.

I don’t think Dean is a top coach (another unpopular opinion) but he managed to galvanise our support like no other. That created a powerful force that carried us from eleventh in the Championship to eleventh in the Premier League in two and a half seasons. At times during that run our whole club was totally united under Dean’s leadership. It was so powerful. I think a similar thing is happening at Newcastle at the moment. Sadly, although understandable, as things started to go wrong with Dean and then disastrous under SG the impatience of the fans returned.

I think that Unai can see this. Whenever we play out from the back you can hear the anxiety in the crowd and there’s always a good few people shouting to get the ball forward. It just doesn’t help and the anxiety spreads through the team. It will take time for Unai to really make a sustainable difference. Most fans can see this and will remain patient but unfortunately the impatient minority often make the most noise. We just need to trust the manager and get behind the team. If we do that, then our ceiling is seriously high.

Totally agree. I’ve been to a few Union Berlin games ( in Bundesliga 2 ) Fans never get angsty, if the tempo slows or increases, their noise from minute 1-90 is pretty much the same. They support in the true definition of the word. Let the players play. 

[Johnnyp]

Fans can definitely play their part. I’ll give you an example alluding to a comment a guy above rightly said. If we are at home and say Cash turns around and passes to Kamara or Konsa, it’s met with groans and complaining. Similar pass made at Goodison yesterday and nothing. The mindset of our fans away from home is different. Hey, i get people want to be entertained but im not having “ we spend good money “ You got up at probably 7-8 am, got ready for a trip to Merseyside, spend money on petrol, train, food than you would had it been at Villa Park so the “ we pay good money to be entertained at Villa Park “ line is bollocks. Give them the same sort of support away as at home. Be consistent. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Johnnyp

[gwi1890]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Completely agree but would add that there's also an older generation of fans who just want the ball played out to pacey wingers as quickly as possible, almost like the MON days when we were exciting, not 100% sure about 81/82

My basic understanding is modern football is played by keeping the ball, slowing it down with triangles of passing, good movement ahead of the midfield* which pulls the opponent out of position and then you spring the trap and then speed the ball up to expose the gaps created, you're holding midfielder(s) see more of the ball than anyone else...Nope **** that, that's boring, get it wide, run at them and get it in the mixer

There's a large portion of fans that seem to remember the great wingers of the past leaving them out of touch with how football is now played, they don't have the patience for trying to play possession football let alone the confidence for it

Edit * that's usually villa pitfall, our movement isn't good enough

Ramsey dropping deep pulled a few Everton players out of position yesterday and he’d either lay it off or turn and progress the ball up the pitch I think he would have created a few goal scoring opportunities if it wasn’t for Everton’s persistent fouling.

[Made In Aston]

1 hour ago, Johnnyp said:

Fans can definitely play their part. I’ll give you an example alluding to a comment a guy above rightly said. If we are at home and say Cash turns around and passes to Kamara or Konsa, it’s met with groans and complaining. Similar pass made at Goodison yesterday and nothing.

I did notice that everytime we played out from the back it got the Everton fans excited, as they could smell blood when their players were closing us down. I think the opposite is true at Villa Park as ours get very edgey and maybe that transmits to the players, as we seem to make more mistakes at home. 

[Delphinho123]

I don’t like the way we play. There, I said it. I don’t like the suicidal playing out from the back.

Now, if we go out and buy players in the Summer that can do it, fine, but right now, it’s painful to watch. I thought we were a tad fortunate to win yesterday. 

Fully behind him to get it right and I hope this way of playing is just him instilling his mentality and playing style on the current squad with the intention of finding better suited players in the transfer window. 

[MaVilla]

Just now, Delphinho123 said:

I don’t like the way we play. There, I said it. I don’t like the suicidal playing out from the back.

Now, if we go out and buy players in the Summer that can do it, fine, but right now, it’s painful to watch. I thought we were a tad fortunate to win yesterday. 

Fully behind him to get it right and I hope this way of playing is just him instilling his mentality and playing style on the current squad with the intention of finding better suited players in the transfer window. 

I understand that ppl dont like the playing out right now at times, as we do have some players who really cant do it.

However, at least Emery is implementing his style come hell or high water, which is something many of our previous managers failed to do, and look where that got them.

The way i see it right now, is it can look a bit painful at times, and it can cost us, but he is implementing the style he wants and it is allowing him to clearly see which players can do it, and which players cant, so its helping Emery to see who stays/goes in the summer, and exactly what we need players wise.

At last we have a manager who is saying to the players, you play my way, if you cant do it, you will be gone, my way or the highway, and for that im happy tbh (if we do have a big summer...), too often these players have flattered to deceive, reverted to type etc, and Emery is basically saying that aint happening, you do it my way or there is the door.

as i say, i understand the playing out is a little painful right now, but i think in the big picture, its the right thing to do.

[KMitch]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

I don’t like the way we play. There, I said it. I don’t like the suicidal playing out from the back.

Now, if we go out and buy players in the Summer that can do it, fine, but right now, it’s painful to watch. I thought we were a tad fortunate to win yesterday. 

Fully behind him to get it right and I hope this way of playing is just him instilling his mentality and playing style on the current squad with the intention of finding better suited players in the transfer window. 

You need to keep in mind too that massive change in team culture doesn't happen overnight.  It needs to be drip fed over time to see serious results.  We're going to make mistakes.  We're going to lose games.  We're going to be frustrated as fans at times, but we've already seen glimpses of just how awesome Emeryball can be.  The payoff will be worth it.

Also, some players are going to take longer to learn and adapt to this style of football than others.  Take for example Ollie's form since Emery came to the club.  He is a very quick learner and is starting to look like the player we hoped he would be for us when we spent all that money on him a few seasons back.  Mings is another very quick learner himself, considering he didn't even play as a central defender until he came to Villa and ended up in the England squad the following season.  He's mentioned how Emery's coaching staff is teaching him more about the CB position than he thought was possible and has spoken about how much nuance there is with Emery's tactics.  It's paying off and he's already improved a lot, especially in possession. Other players will take a lot longer to adapt to this new way of playing and approach to the game.  The only way they're going to learn is by playing, making mistakes, and learning from them. 

Just saying "we can't afford to make mistakes" and switch back to a low block and hoof ball because a lot of our team hasn't built from the back before is just going to delay the learning process.  It would be different if we were Dyche's Burnley and had a back line of thuggish cloggers trying to do this, but we have a world cup winning keeper, 3 international defenders, and Konsa, who is a serviceable enough backup, but will be dropped for a massive upgrade in Diego Carlos when he's fully fit again.  These players can do this, but they will need time to figure it out themselves.