Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

Just an observation..........

We often talk about creativity, and we often turn to that aspect to criticise ourselves.....but when you analyse the Leicester Goals on Saturday, it was hardly as a result of creative play, in the true sense of the word.

2 Goals originated from pressing and turning the ball over and another 2 came from aerial balls......we failed to deal with all 4.

I watch other teams, and the amount of threat that comes from pressing is significant....when we do it, it works......On Saturday, our Ground duels stat was appalling from a number of players and that was the catalyst to our down fall.....from that many things went wrong.

If we come out strolling, thinking we are Barcelona, we will get undone in this league, there is no short cut to competitive edge or SEMI pressing.....if we don't have the right personnel, for it.....I suggest we get some.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

 

Yes I can see how Emery wants us playing now. I see it as there are three different phases the defensive shape, the build up shape and the attacking shape.

We all know it's a 4 4 2 mid block in defensive. It can become a 5 3 2 or a 6 2 2 / 6 3 1 at times too of needed.

It's the build up phase which is interesting the left back is meant to operate as a winger essentially and the Right back as a RCB. 

So we get this 3 4 3 or 3 2 2 3 in the build up phase. With LB and RF either side of a central Striker as the forward three. So between a 3 2 4 1 and a 3 2 2 3 at times. Then in the final attacking phase the RB joins the midfield and the two wide Midfielders join the final line to make a 2 3 5 attack.

So what we need from a RB is this Cancelo/Zinchenko type midfield play maker hybrid with a Right sided CB. So a mix of a 6 and a RB. Player needs recovery pace like the rest of the back 4. A bit of height too probably welcome but not essential. I think this is a key position for Summer. 

For LB we have two good options. Teams who are going to sit deeper Digne might be the better option. Moreno for when we need the pace. 

Up front we need to get some competition for Watkins in that Striker role with Duran as 3rd Striker. Bailey is the RF and Traore as backup but I think we need to sign someone a proper cut above them and move Traore on. That target is clearly Nico Williams 

Finally another midfielder ala Guendouzi who can play CM or RM. I feel Emery wants Buendia, JJ and one of Coutinho and McGinn. We can easily see Coutinho moving on. 

I think those are the 4 key signings. The first three are the most key I think. 

 

I am not arguing with any of that.....but I think football is a simple game, made complicated.

If you don't compete, you will get done....no matter what system you play, or what manager you have.

Our "ground duel" stat told the story for me.....and no system will negate that.

On another note, would Zinchenko/Jesus and cancelo, been better than the £100 mill for Jack?....not a loaded question , just asking.

[DJBOB]

Just now, TRO said:

Just an observation..........

We often talk about creativity, and we often turn to that aspect to criticise ourselves.....but when you analyse the Leicester Goals on Saturday, it was hardly as a result of creative play, in the true sense of the word.

2 Goals originated from pressing and turning the ball over and another 2 came from aerial balls......we failed to deal with all 4.

I watch other teams, and the amount of threat that comes from pressing is significant....when we do it, it works......On Saturday, our Ground duels stat was appalling from a number of players and that was the catalyst to our down fall.....from that many things went wrong.

If we come out strolling, thinking we are Barcelona, we will get undone in this league, there is no short cut to competitive edge or SEMI pressing.....if we don't have the right personnel, for it.....I suggest we get some.

I hardly think they were strolling out to be Barcelona. Kamara just had a very off day and then we were chasing it afterwards.

It's only the 2nd time out of 7 that we've given up multiple goals under Unai. The defensive strength is there and I know VT likes to careen wildly between matches, but the whole of the league matches we've been very stalwart defensively.

 

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Spot on with the targets I think. Need better than Bailey or more competition with Bailey. Clearly need a Cancelo/Zinchenko/Rico Williams to play the broad variety and responsibility of that position. I think Konsa will be rotation and I don't think Unai is quite happy with Chambers as the 4th CB. And then Guendouzi who can be deployed in multiple areas along the midfield line. Buendia, JJ, and McGinn I feel will stay. He's giving Coutinho a shot and from everything I've heard, Coutinho is a good pro - but perhaps not cut out for the pace and power of the prem anymore.

I think if we had a player, who could turn the ball over regularly in midfield, Coutinho would be much better.

I am not an advocate of accomodating players, but I do think our mix of players, does not get the best out of him.

They targeted Kamara on Saturday, and he didn't have much help in that.....it nullified our playing platform....they done their homework.

[TRO]

35 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I hardly think they were strolling out to be Barcelona. Kamara just had a very off day and then we were chasing it afterwards.

It's only the 2nd time out of 7 that we've given up multiple goals under Unai. The defensive strength is there and I know VT likes to careen wildly between matches, but the whole of the league matches we've been very stalwart defensively.

 

Well we certainly never come out like Wimbledon, put it that way.....both hyperbole to highlight the point.

Well my observations are considered, not wildly careened as you put it.

I am searching for perspective and I think there is enough in the Liverpool, Wolves, Stevenage and  Leicester games to debate our short comings, without clinging to being negative or wild depression....we cannot keep clinging to "bad day at the office".This is by far, not the first time and not the first manager, to experience it.

Our start has been great....but we need to widen our observations, to see our weaknesses and not be afraid to discuss them....in fear of being deemed negative......its negative to keep running with the staus quo, and not look for improvement.

Wild positivity, with gay abandon, is equally as gauling to some, who do see our achilles Heel and willing to discuss it, with maturity.

There is a clear, distinction of how we play away, to how we play at home, and I think it is down to how we see our responsibilities to the game.....There is no burden to us away, to create a spectacle, at home it could be....UE is eager to please, and there is nothing wrong with that, but we don't defend at home, like we do away......Once we progress exponentially through the form table, its no wonder teams come to stop us....We need to learn how to counter act that...and winning ground duels and aerial duels is a start.

I come back to that old haunting adage....." You have to win the right, to play football"......We need to learn that at Home.

Ps Even the podcasters, who are suseptible to being overly positive, to create popularity, were at odds with our last performance, and willing to be analytical and say so....even references to it being not a one off, were fairly made.

Edited February 7, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well we certainly never come out like Wimbledon, put it that way.....both hyperbole to highlight the point.

Well my observations are considered, not wildly careened as you put it.

I am searching for perspective and I think there is enough in the Liverpool, Wolves, Stevenage and  Leicester games to debate our short comings, without clinging to being negative or wild depression....we cannot keep clinging to bad day at the office.

Our start has been great....but we need to widen our observations, to see our weaknesses and not be afraid to discuss them....in fear of being deemed negative......its negative to keep running with the staus quo, and not look for improvement.

Wild positivity, with gay abandon, is equally as gauling to some, who do see our achilles Heel and willing to discuss it, with maturity.

There is a clear, distinction of how we play away, to how we play at home, and I think it is down to how we see our responsibilities to the game.....There is no burden to us away, to create a spectacle, at home it could be....UE is eager to please, and there is nothing wrong with that, but we don't defend at home, like we do away......Once we progress exponentially through the form table, its no wonder teams come to stop us....We need to learn how to counter act that...and winning ground duels and aerial duels is a start.

I come back to that old haunting adage....." You have to win the right, to play football"......We need to learn that at Home.

Liverpool and Leicester I can give you as they were very similar in what happened. Stevenage - the less said the better, but that was Unai seeing who in the squad needed to remain or be shipped out.

And Wolves did us over.

But this is not particularly new to Villa. We struggle at home because we commit extra numbers in the attack to drive us forward and opponents let us have the ball.

This isn't optimism or pessimism, opponents will gladly let us have the ball at VP knowing our difficulties in breaking teams down. We have held the majority of possession in Liverpool/Wolves/Leicester and were punished at different points during each match for not taking our chances.

On a meta note - I do think that the locals at VP get antsy at the prospect of holding possession in our own half. "Hooooooooooof it! Get rid!" 

Of course that's on Unai and the team to train the Villa players to block that out - but it will take time for VP to get used to allowing the opportunity to make mistakes in the back.

[Sulberto21]

We matched Liverpool stride for stride and missed big chances at key points of the match , created more chances than both Leicester and Wolves and had 2 minutes of madness v Stevenage. 

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Liverpool and Leicester I can give you as they were very similar in what happened. Stevenage - the less said the better, but that was Unai seeing who in the squad needed to remain or be shipped out.

And Wolves did us over.

But this is not particularly new to Villa. We struggle at home because we commit extra numbers in the attack to drive us forward and opponents let us have the ball.

This isn't optimism or pessimism, opponents will gladly let us have the ball at VP knowing our difficulties in breaking teams down. We have held the majority of possession in Liverpool/Wolves/Leicester and were punished at different points during each match for not taking our chances.

On a meta note - I do think that the locals at VP get antsy at the prospect of holding possession in our own half. "Hooooooooooof it! Get rid!" 

Of course that's on Unai and the team to train the Villa players to block that out - but it will take time for VP to get used to allowing the opportunity to make mistakes in the back.

Yeah.

I think nuances to the said games can be made, but I think the underlying outcomes remain the same or similar.

I agree with your second line, but the fans should be educated enough to realise, you go tight, after you have scored..... thats an old acceptance.

I don't entirely accept your third line.....opponents are driven to challenge us for the ball, and depending on the game, have varying levels of success....On Saturday, our ground duel success, was less than good...that yields the initiative in most cases, and it did.

On the playing out from the back, its ok if its executed properly....I am not in favour of any one way, because it becomes predictable, I can understand our keeness to do it as our ability in the air is debatable, but I would like to see it mixed up, to create uncertainty for the opposition.

If you are saying, we will make more mishaps like that, before we perfect it.....I'm not sure the fans will run with that....that was not the concept at fault, that was stupidity.....Mings and Konsa was Forte Knox, why take unnecessay risks, which is what Konsa, was saying to Martinez as they walked back.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

Well he could use Mings as an inverted left back (as there isn't much difference between a ball playing centre back that used to be a fullback and a 6 fullback cross) with Cash RB, and Duran right striker. Put Bailey left wing (where he is better suited), as left forward then have Buendia inside him. If Duran is good enough this could be extremely effective. A diagonal ball from Mings to Duran could be a nice little pressure reliever. Plus Mings carrying to ball into midfield from left back.

Also if you have a big tall striker on the right having a left winger pumping in crosses from the left.  Bailey can certainly cross.

Seems too convoluted to try do exactly the same thing but switch the sides. It means you need two types of players for both sides. The signing of Moreno and how Emery set up Villarreal with the attacking LB to me signals he wants to go the way I outlined. I don't see Bailey playing left of Duran up top and Cash playing the right in this way. 

Duran is a 19yo was signed as 3rd choice Striker. His goal is to develop and move himself up to 2nd and possibly 1st choice over time. 

We need to get the players for the system Emery wants to play and they need time to learn to play it. 

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I am not arguing with any of that.....but I think football is a simple game, made complicated.

If you don't compete, you will get done....no matter what system you play, or what manager you have.

Our "ground duel" stat told the story for me.....and no system will negate that.

On another note, would Zinchenko/Jesus and cancelo, been better than the £100 mill for Jack?....not a loaded question , just asking.

The team played bad on Saturday. Lots of mistakes got punished. It was strange performance and Kamara making two mistakes that lead to goals is a very rare thing. 

If we have competition for places players feel the pressure and feel like they need to concentrate every game or they could have their place taken. Konsa and Mings have had no competition for years. Digne, Cash etc.. lots of players need it to drive the standards 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Interesting stat on our defensive resiliency this year. I think Leicester was the first time in the league we dropped points with Unai. 

The other game we dropped points was Palace away which speaks to how little we ever had the lead under Gerrard. 
 

 

So that chart shows Newcastle in a poorer light to us......but have only conceded 12 goals all season, against our 31

 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

The team played bad on Saturday. Lots of mistakes got punished. It was strange performance and Kamara making two mistakes that lead to goals is a very rare thing. 

If we have competition for places players feel the pressure and feel like they need to concentrate every game or they could have their place taken. Konsa and Mings have had no competition for years. Digne, Cash etc.. lots of players need it to drive the standards 

Totally agree...hence my surprise at January.

[DJBOB]

17 minutes ago, TRO said:

So that chart shows Newcastle in a poorer light to us......but have only conceded 12 goals all season, against our 31

 

Can't give up the lead if you never take it!

[CVByrne]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

Totally agree...hence my surprise at January.

I was actually happy about January because it shows the right players weren't available that can take the place of the current incumbent player. We are not looking to add numbers we are looking to add quality. 

[HKP90]

18 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

Good to know there’s always someone keeping you on your toes in here! 

Just made me laugh as I had visions of a confused soapy infant trying to figure out whether his head could fit in a pint glass. 

[DaveAV1]

12 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Just made me laugh as I had visions of a confused soapy infant trying to figure out whether his head could fit in a pint glass. 

I’m generally the confused one! Our daughter is 8 now,  so she’s survived my parental skills, although it’s fair to say my wife deserves most of the credit. 

[TomC]

8 hours ago, Philosopher said:

But it makes sense if you consider Bailey to be more comfortable on the left and as a conventional winger.

You can argue that he's looked better on the left when we've played him there, but from what I remember, when he first signed, he said the he prefers the right although he could play either side.

 

[DJBOB]

Unless Unai flips the whole system around, Bailey will continue playing on the right

[TomC]

4 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Unless Unai flips the whole system around, Bailey will continue playing on the right

His ultimate goal may be to be able to flip the system at will...this time the right back goes forward, next time the left. Given that Bailey can play on both sides, he might be able to do it.

 

[Philosopher]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Seems too convoluted to try do exactly the same thing but switch the sides. It means you need two types of players for both sides. The signing of Moreno and how Emery set up Villarreal with the attacking LB to me signals he wants to go the way I outlined. I don't see Bailey playing left of Duran up top and Cash playing the right in this way. 

Duran is a 19yo was signed as 3rd choice Striker. His goal is to develop and move himself up to 2nd and possibly 1st choice over time. 

We need to get the players for the system Emery wants to play and they need time to learn to play it. 

I disagree with you on two points. Firstly Emery's tactical approach is about overloading one side of the pitch a having versatility throughout the team so the team can shape-shift between different formations. As we have both said the team (once fully adjusted to his methods) will be able to seamlessly shift between 2 to 6 at the back, 2 to 4 central midfielders, and 1 to 3 forwards. This is also a coach that uses his subs to change games. Versatility and flexibility is what make his system work. He would absolutely look to target the right side of the pitch if a weakness was identified there.

At Villareal he had Pino, Baeno, Chukwueze, and Danjuma 4 very different widemen and rarely did he play even 3 together. Baeno popped up on both wings. He also had Moreno up to who also can play off the right. That's without mentioning Nicolas Jackson. So the idea he will only play one way just isn't right.

As for Duran you don't replace a 21 year old talented striker for a 19 year old because he less ready for first team football. Throw in he let Ings leave hints at his huge potential. The MLS is comparable to the Championship, where he excelled for a really poor team. So he isn't as far off as it seems at first glance. I'm not saying he is ready now, but this time next season I wouldn't be surprised if he was on the verge of cementing a place in the first team.