Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

On 01/03/2023 at 12:02, HKP90 said:

 I think what I've noticed most about games under Emery, and the thing that we as Villa fans have to get used to, is that there is an overarching plan for each game. What I mean by this is that previous managers seem to start with the team they think is going to win the game, and then make subs when that plan falls short or does not work. The subs are there as a plan B. 

I get the distinct impression from the way that Emery selects teams, notably with the way we've used Moreno and possibly Buendia also, that the subs form part of Plan A.

It's easy to say in retrospect but the way we started against Everton, I feel we were aiming to stifle them, with a view to opening them up later in the game using planned, more creative subs. 

I can't prove this of course, not being privvy to tactical discussions, but it feels that way. If that is the case, we need to be prepared to be potentially disappointed at times with team selections, and be patient, knowing that there are plans to unlock stubborn or dangerous teams  that transcend the starting XI. 

I agree, with this.....but we need some more varying styles of players, in order to make the changes relevant.

we seem to have a squad, of very similar players, which makes it hard to make significant change......it will always seem like we are changing players for form, not tactics.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I agree.....is why I would use Konsa there, when Carlos is back.

We have been expecting 2 centre backs to do all the defending, under the 2 previous managers.....Unai does seem to want Cash further back.

I can see that happening for sure. 

[DeepDish]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

I agree, with this.....but we need some more varying styles of players, in order to make the changes relevant.

we seem to have a squad, of very similar players, which makes it hard to make significant change......it will always seem like we are changing players for form, not tactics.

I think our squad is way too small at the moment. Can't even have enough players at the bench. We need to buy more quality players and not let anyone go, bar the odd one that may have had his time at our club. But the idea of selling three or more players and just buy three replacements will leave us with just as small squad. So we should get maybe 5 quality players in and only let one go. And then we can see who does not fit in after some months into next season. Building the squad is a vital task for Emery.

[CVByrne]

It was good seeing us attack down the right with Cash a lot as well as the left. I think Emery will want this kind of flexibility with the fullbacks and playing 3 CBs and a FB or 2 CBs and 2 FBs depending on opposition and if we are home/away. 

I think with a player a defensively good as McGinn he works well ahead of Cash. Similarly JJ on left ahead of Moreno. Both have a year of covering for fullbacks under Gerrard so are better defensively positioned than Buendia/Coutinho/Bailey would be in their positions

Edited March 5, 2023 by CVByrne

[sne]

 

[CVByrne]

I'm going to surmise Emery's game plan. Palace were not going to press us and thus we are free to build from the back without pressure. Teams who don't press us and are below us in the League who come to Villa Park are going to sit deeper and not offer space behind their defence. With high pressing requires a high defensive line to compress the field. 

So we have less space for quick players to run into so Bailey is on the bench and Buendia who has more guile is played as a second striker to drop into the space between the lines. The width comes from Moreno / Cash getting up the field  past JJ / McGinn who cover for their full backs if they've gone past them. 

But the much maligned Gerrard system where JJ / McGinn covered for the full backs this is not. The reason why is we have two 6s in Luiz/Kamara and one 10 in Buendia here. Where Gerrard left us exposed with one 6 and two 10s. Emery trusts Moreno & JJ, Cash & McGinn to know who goes and who covers. Even better is that with Luiz/Kamara there and say an attack coming down the right side the midfield shifts over JJ would occupy the left side of midfield three while Moreno provided width.

This is good coaching and trusting the players.

[DJBOB]

A marked change from some home games when he played Bailey in his more usual box 3 box. It had the compound effect of not being as effective due to Bailey’s in and out form as well as leaving us more light in the build up. With mcginn, JJ and the fullbacks moving forward when the passing sequence is triggered, there’s more players in rest defense but still the threat of going forward  once the passing pattern is on. 

A sign of an elite manager reorienting the pieces he has to be more effective instead of “we go again.”

[TomC]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Palace were not going to press us and thus we are free to build from the back without pressure. Teams who don't press us and are below us in the League who come to Villa Park are going to sit deeper and not offer space behind their defence.

They didn't press hard, but I wouldn't say that we were free to build from the back or that they sat deep. It was more of a mid-block. They put three men on Kamara and Luiz to prevent us from advancing the ball through the middle...sometimes the three were between the backline and midfield to cut them off completely, other times they had two between the backline and midfield and the third guy nipped at Dougie's or Bouba's heels if the ball got through, forcing them to play it right back to the defenders.

We ended up advancing the ball through Cash and Moreno to get around this.

 

[CVByrne]

It's great seeing such a good attacking identity form. The ability to score goals with patient build up play (our last two goals at VP this way). While we are also a threat with quick counter attacks. I think we got the defensive balance wrong and had mistakes against Leicester & Arsenal. While we didn't stick to the plan and try keep posession in the end game against Arsenal too. 

Emery is such a good coach

[TRO]

No One, has questioned UE's coaching ability, so its a moot point.

However, Game plans and tactics, have to have an outcome and so far, bar for a few bumps....it has worked.

7 wins in 12 is evidence, its working.

I have to say I am happy with the return, but I must confess the highline, with the present personnel makes me nervy.

Having said that, I am not opposed to it, and I can see the benefits, but equally, I think you need the players fine tuned, to play it.

You have to have a sweeper keeper, quick and alert centre backs, and players who can engage in gegenpressing......Then the benefits will appear.

I anticipate, we will continue with it, until we perfect it, and hopefully introduce a few players in the summer, who are comfortable with it.

I imagine UE is aware of all that, but wants to start as he means to go on.

I am all for pressing high, so I guess a trade off, is necessary.

 

[DJBOB]

That is the trade off and what will be needed to consistently place higher in the league. Possession, high lines, trapping the opponents in their own half, patient build up play to rope the opponents into pressing (and sometimes being punished for it).

Might seem pie in the sky for now and plenty of clubs have tried and been naive about it (Dean Smith for one), but I believe in Unai's tactical acumen and he strikes the balance between possession to score and pragmatism in defense and in attack.

We have already seen him adjust and trying to play Bailey into form with Xavi's 3box3 and then against Palace, went to his 4 CM's to control possession against a possession heavy but toothless Palace attack.

West Ham are a very rough and tumble side but Moyes is probably the one of the last of the old guard punt and rush managers. They have a quality strong (phYsIcAL) side but Moyes lack of a plan B and inability to keep up with the modern tweaks and fluctuations in-game should hopefully tilt the match our way.

[bannedfromHandV]

I wonder what the plan is if we lose another midfielder to injury or suspension because after dendoncker, theres no one.

[TRO]

22 hours ago, DJBOB said:

That is the trade off and what will be needed to consistently place higher in the league. Possession, high lines, trapping the opponents in their own half, patient build up play to rope the opponents into pressing (and sometimes being punished for it).

Might seem pie in the sky for now and plenty of clubs have tried and been naive about it (Dean Smith for one), but I believe in Unai's tactical acumen and he strikes the balance between possession to score and pragmatism in defense and in attack.

We have already seen him adjust and trying to play Bailey into form with Xavi's 3box3 and then against Palace, went to his 4 CM's to control possession against a possession heavy but toothless Palace attack.

West Ham are a very rough and tumble side but Moyes is probably the one of the last of the old guard punt and rush managers. They have a quality strong (phYsIcAL) side but Moyes lack of a plan B and inability to keep up with the modern tweaks and fluctuations in-game should hopefully tilt the match our way.

Yeah

but we need to respect the fact that these rough and tumble style managers can trump our more sophisticated managers on Occasions.....so we must be resolute.

We have to remember that, one style doesn't always work, it didn't against Leicester, and Man U's recent renaissance was undone at Anfield, when you don't get it right and they do.

Players still have to work hard and do their jobs to instruction, to win games......and managers need to vary tactics to suit, negating the opposition.

The full backs are a point in question.....some games they can attack and some games is more prudent, to stay back.....its all about horses for courses.

We have seen to our detriment, huge gaps exploited, where the full backs have vacated, in pursuit of attack.....long balls floated in to these area's where their runners have caught us out.

There is no one way to win....flexibility is key, and the surprise element is prudent.

The Liverpool V Man U game was an interesting take, to remind us, you cannot take anything for granted.....Paul Scholes analytics was spot on for me.....I thought the Brentford v Fulham was an interesting game to take stuff from too.

I Look forward to the West Ham encounter.

 

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I wonder what the plan is if we lose another midfielder to injury or suspension because after dendoncker, theres no one.

Chambers or probably McGinn back to centre midfield.

Young played a game last season there

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Yeah

but we need to respect the fact that these rough and tumble style managers can trump our more sophisticated managers on Occasions.....so we must be resolute.

We have to remember that, one style doesn't always work, it didn't against Leicester, and Man U's recent renaissance was undone at Anfield, when you don't get it right and they do.

Players still have to work hard and do their jobs to instruction, to win games......and managers need to vary tactics to suit, negating the opposition.

The full backs are a point in question.....some games they can attack and some games is more prudent, to stay back.....its all about horses for courses.

We have seen to our detriment, huge gaps exploited, where the full backs have vacated, in pursuit of attack.....long balls floated in to these area's where their runners have caught us out.

There is no one way to win....flexibility is key, and the surprise element is prudent.

The Liverpool V Man U game was an interesting take, to remind us, you cannot take anything for granted.....Paul Scholes analytics was spot on for me.....I thought the Brentford v Fulham was an interesting game to take stuff from too.

I Look forward to the West Ham encounter.

 

Yes you still need to fight and win duels. Tactics put players in the right positions but Unai cannot win duels for them. 
 
Unai must put players in the right position in accordance to the pre-match instructions and flow of the match but it is up to the players to win duels and make the right passes. 
 
So I disagree that we didn’t have the right style or gameplan against say Leicester. The idea was right but several key times we lost duels or gave away the ball needlessly. 
 
The only match where I felt Unai got it wrong was Wolves home (wasted a whole half playing Cash in front of Young). 

[DJBOB]

6 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I wonder what the plan is if we lose another midfielder to injury or suspension because after dendoncker, theres no one.

It's probably Dendoncker then Chambers then McGinn/Ramsay. He doesn't seem to favor either McGinn or Ramsay in the middle. The two CM's in the formation are relied on to be calm on the ball under pressure from lots of angles and make quick, accurate passes - neither of which are McGinn and JJ's strengths.

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

Yes you still need to fight and win duels. Tactics put players in the right positions but Unai cannot win duels for them. 
 
Unai must put players in the right position in accordance to the pre-match instructions and flow of the match but it is up to the players to win duels and make the right passes. 
 
 So i disagree that we didn’t have the right style or gameplan against say Leicester. The idea was right but several key times we lost duels or gave away the ball needlessly. 
 
The only match where I felt Unai got it wrong was Wolves home (wasted a whole half playing Cash in front of Young). 

Talking about the Leicester Game.....Whether it was the right game plan or whether the players never executed it properly, is a matter of opinion....but it clearly didn't work, either way.....because the outcome was not what we wanted/planned.

Game plans only work, when players, make it work.

I thought, he might have got it wrong in the cup away to Man U.....They just picked us off, with the long ball.

UE has done fantastic, so far......but the players themselves have to do it, too.....so far, so good.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

I wonder how different the analysis would have been if we had of lost by 1 goal to Crystal Palace?...with exactly the same stats, bar the goal.

Just being devils advocate.

Edited March 7, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

It's a results business but the beauty of football is the random and spectacular can override the supposed result at any time. How many times have we seen undeserved wins, losses, and anywhere in between.

By any statistical measure, we outplayed Palace but would that have mattered if Zaha was a few inches more onside for their first goal or if they had won a random penalty? You can also flip it and say that the game would've been dead if Ollie had put the ball a hair to the right for a goal at the end of the first half.

The game plan was correct and I maintain the game plan was correct against Leicester as well. We just need better execution (not gift them 3 goals) and for Unai to have more time to understand which combinations work best.

[TRO]

On 06/03/2023 at 14:05, CVByrne said:

It's great seeing such a good attacking identity form. The ability to score goals with patient build up play (our last two goals at VP this way). While we are also a threat with quick counter attacks. I think we got the defensive balance wrong and had mistakes against Leicester & Arsenal. While we didn't stick to the plan and try keep posession in the end game against Arsenal too. 

Emery is such a good coach

Arsenal are a better team than us, and the stats support that....but in the 90 minutes we did well and was resolute, despite conceding much territory.

The Mistake for not picking up Jorginho, has happened, many times, allowing players the freedom, for a pot shot at our goals, from the edge of the area, so we didn't learn......rightly or wrongly, we just funneled back in numbers, not strategically.

It was a fortunate, goal, but we contributed to it.

We have not for such a long time been a team to keep possession, readily, so I see that being a long haul of WIP......IMO we need personnel change for that.