Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

28 minutes ago, TRO said:

You can also have a modestly constructed defence in financial terms like Newcastle and be sitting on the best goals against column in the league.

Its about the ability to recruit well, which is the main criteria.

They have gone from one of the worst defences to the best, by shrewd selection of targets.....Botman, being the only expensive buy, in that dep't.

While true - let's see what they say about Newcastle at the end of the year as they're in a bit of a goal drought right now. If you ask Newcastle fans, they might say they're setting up a bit two defensive with 3 CB's on the back line and 3 defensively oriented CM's.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

While true - let's see what they say about Newcastle at the end of the year as they're in a bit of a goal drought right now. If you ask Newcastle fans, they might say they're setting up a bit two defensive with 3 CB's on the back line and 3 defensively oriented CM's.

seems to be working ok, from where I'm sitting.

I think their midfielders can do both attack and defend.

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

While true - let's see what they say about Newcastle at the end of the year as they're in a bit of a goal drought right now. If you ask Newcastle fans, they might say they're setting up a bit two defensive with 3 CB's on the back line and 3 defensively oriented CM's.

still scored 9 more goals than us + 22 GD...depends what anyone wants....That gets points.

 

[DJBOB]

Newcastle have done well but we Villa fans know that flying high in January doesn't mean you'll be in the same spot in May.

On paper - that team is over performing and they might continue to do so. But it's a long season.

[TRO]

38 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Newcastle have done well but we Villa fans know that flying high in January doesn't mean you'll be in the same spot in May.

On paper - that team is over performing and they might continue to do so. But it's a long season.

it might be worth pointing out our goals conceded stats, since we was in the Premier League.

Average per game conceded.

2022-23 to date.....1.47 

2021-22.................1.42

2020-2021.............1.21

2019-2020............1.76

so it got better initially and we have slipped back a bit, since 2020-21....my point is, you need a pretty good attacking force to negate that.We have had one season 2020-21 where we have had a positive GD.

I think we need a focused look at our defence, while we are busying ourselves with Strikers.

Edited February 6, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

39 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Newcastle have done well but we Villa fans know that flying high in January doesn't mean you'll be in the same spot in May.

On paper - that team is over performing and they might continue to do so. But it's a long season.

Same could be said for Fulham and Brighton....... and Forest are picking up.

[DJBOB]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

it might be worth pointing out our goals conceded stats, since we was in the Premier League.

Average per game conceded.

2022-23 to date.....1.47 

2021-22.................1.42

2020-2021.............1.21

2019-2020............1.76

so it got better initially and we have slipped back a bit, since 2020-21....my point is, you need a pretty good attacking force to negate that.We have had one season 2020-21 where we have had a positive GD.

I think we need a focused look at our defence, while we are busying ourselves with Strikers.

Eh - I take any stats during the Stevie G era with a grain of salt. Man was clueless so I don't try to extrapolate from there.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Eh - I take any stats during the Stevie G era with a grain of salt. Man was clueless so I don't try to extrapolate from there.

Well, it much the same players....and its difficult to seperate as his 12 months was split over 2 seasons.

I think a picture, still develops.

Could be the next Leeds Manager.

 

[OLDVILLAIN]

How have the likes of forest been able to sign 30 players this season?..not strictly teamsheet and tactics but they could field 3 teams..Is FFP going to bite them on the botttom?

[IrishVilla10]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Well, it much the same players....and its difficult to seperate as his 12 months was split over 2 seasons.

I think a picture, still develops.

Could be the next Leeds Manager.

 

Leeds are smarter than that 

[Philosopher]

If you look at Emery's system, the attacking left back and left striker work the left wing, and the left winger is a central midfielder. Then he has a more conventional approach of the right, with the right striker playing as a right forward providing plenty of width, that doesn't need to track back much. With a conventional defensively oriented full back. Essentially a lop-sided 4-4-1-1. He chose to favour attacking one side of the pitch (in this case the left). This concentrates our attacking threat on that side, but with one or two passes the ball can be switched to the right side with that wide forward in acres of space.

 

 

John Duran is a left footed striker converted from a winger with pace and power. So it's highly likely he was brought in to do the same as Ollie only from the right channel. We also have Cash that can do the marauding fullback role. Also we can move Bailey to the left to play as a conventional winger for a very different attacking threat that keeps the two banks of 4 unchanged. You basically have a winger whipping in dangerous crosses into the path of a striker with the presence of a target man, but the pace and skill of winger.

We can move Mings to left back and Carlos to left CB, then we can go to 5 or even 6 at the back without a single personnel change.

 

Also Nico Williams is starting to make more sense. As I was a little confused as to why he want another left footed right forward, when we have both Bailey and now Traore back. But it makes sense if you consider Bailey to be more comfortable on the left and as a conventional winger. Traore and Williams are both very much inside forwards. Then he can even play Bailey as the left midfielder or as left forward, and there is plenty of competition at right forward, and left forward.

 

 

 

[PeterSw]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

If you look at Emery's system, the attacking left back and left striker work the left wing, and the left winger is a central midfielder. Then he has a more conventional approach of the right, with the right striker playing as a right forward providing plenty of width, that doesn't need to track back much. With a conventional defensively oriented full back. Essentially a lop-sided 4-4-1-1. He chose to favour attacking one side of the pitch (in this case the left). This concentrates our attacking threat on that side, but with one or two passes the ball can be switched to the right side with that wide forward in acres of space.

 

 

John Duran is a left footed striker converted from a winger with pace and power. So it's highly likely he was brought in to do the same as Ollie only from the right channel. We also have Cash that can do the marauding fullback role. Also we can move Bailey to the left to play as a conventional winger for a very different attacking threat that keeps the two banks of 4 unchanged. You basically have a winger whipping in dangerous crosses into the path of a striker with the presence of a target man, but the pace and skill of winger.

We can move Mings to left back and Carlos to left CB, then we can go to 5 or even 6 at the back without a single personnel change.

 

Also Nico Williams is starting to make more sense. As I was a little confused as to why he want another left footed right forward, when we have both Bailey and now Traore back. But it makes sense if you consider Bailey to be more comfortable on the left and as a conventional winger. Traore and Williams are both very much inside forwards. Then he can even play Bailey as the left midfielder or as left forward, and there is plenty of competition at right forward, and left forward.

Posted about this in the Matty Cash thread, wish I read this first though. This could/should give us the option to play the same way on both sides and in turn be less predictable.

[DJBOB]

Interesting stat on our defensive resiliency this year. I think Leicester was the first time in the league we dropped points with Unai. 

The other game we dropped points was Palace away which speaks to how little we ever had the lead under Gerrard. 
 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by DJBOB

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, Philosopher said:

If you look at Emery's system, the attacking left back and left striker work the left wing, and the left winger is a central midfielder. Then he has a more conventional approach of the right, with the right striker playing as a right forward providing plenty of width, that doesn't need to track back much. With a conventional defensively oriented full back. Essentially a lop-sided 4-4-1-1. He chose to favour attacking one side of the pitch (in this case the left). This concentrates our attacking threat on that side, but with one or two passes the ball can be switched to the right side with that wide forward in acres of space.

 

Yes I can see how Emery wants us playing now. I see it as there are three different phases the defensive shape, the build up shape and the attacking shape.

We all know it's a 4 4 2 mid block in defensive. It can become a 5 3 2 or a 6 2 2 / 6 3 1 at times too of needed.

It's the build up phase which is interesting the left back is meant to operate as a winger essentially and the Right back as a RCB. 

So we get this 3 4 3 or 3 2 2 3 in the build up phase. With LB and RF either side of a central Striker as the forward three. So between a 3 2 4 1 and a 3 2 2 3 at times. Then in the final attacking phase the RB joins the midfield and the two wide Midfielders join the final line to make a 2 3 5 attack.

So what we need from a RB is this Cancelo/Zinchenko type midfield play maker hybrid with a Right sided CB. So a mix of a 6 and a RB. Player needs recovery pace like the rest of the back 4. A bit of height too probably welcome but not essential. I think this is a key position for Summer. 

For LB we have two good options. Teams who are going to sit deeper Digne might be the better option. Moreno for when we need the pace. 

Up front we need to get some competition for Watkins in that Striker role with Duran as 3rd Striker. Bailey is the RF and Traore as backup but I think we need to sign someone a proper cut above them and move Traore on. That target is clearly Nico Williams 

Finally another midfielder ala Guendouzi who can play CM or RM. I feel Emery wants Buendia, JJ and one of Coutinho and McGinn. We can easily see Coutinho moving on. 

I think those are the 4 key signings. The first three are the most key I think. 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by CVByrne

[DaveAV1]

9 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Interesting stat on our defensive resiliency this year. I think Leicester was the first time in the league we dropped points with Unai. 

The other game we dropped points was Palace away which speaks to how little we ever had the lead under Gerrard. 
 

 

This illustrates that Unai is generally getting things right and the Leicester game was basically an exception rather than the rule. Certainly no need to throw the baby out with the dishwater. 
 

Playing out from the back has its risks but overall has more rewards. The players need to learn when to do it and when to be more pragmatic. That will come with time and with the introduction of better players. 
 

The most cultured centre half to ever pull on a Villa shirt, would regularly stride serenely out of the box and leave utter chaos behind him, but he always knew when it was time to put it into row z. Then again I’m talking about a different class of footballer entirely now. 

[HKP90]

15 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

This illustrates that Unai is generally getting things right and the Leicester game was basically an exception rather than the rule. Certainly no need to throw the baby out with the dishwater. 
 

Playing out from the back has its risks but overall has more rewards. The players need to learn when to do it and when to be more pragmatic. That will come with time and with the introduction of better players. 
 

The most cultured centre half to ever pull on a Villa shirt, would regularly stride serenely out of the box and leave utter chaos behind him, but he always knew when it was time to put it into row z. Then again I’m talking about a different class of footballer entirely now. 

You bathe your baby in the sink while you are washing up? 

Just kidding.

[Philosopher]

39 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

 

Yes I can see how Emery wants us playing now. I see it as there are three different phases the defensive shape, the build up shape and the attacking shape.

We all know it's a 4 4 2 mid block in defensive. It can become a 5 3 2 or a 6 2 2 / 6 3 1 at times too of needed.

It's the build up phase which is interesting the left back is meant to operate as a winger essentially and the Right back as a RCB. 

So we get this 3 4 3 or 3 2 2 3 in the build up phase. With LB and RF either side of a central Striker as the forward three. So between a 3 2 4 1 and a 3 2 2 3 at times. Then in the final attacking phase the RB joins the midfield and the two wide Midfielders join the final line to make a 2 3 5 attack.

So what we need from a RB is this Cancelo/Zinchenko type midfield play maker hybrid with a Right sided CB. So a mix of a 6 and a RB. Player needs recovery pace like the rest of the back 4. A bit of height too probably welcome but not essential. I think this is a key position for Summer. 

For LB we have two good options. Teams who are going to sit deeper Digne might be the better option. Moreno for when we need the pace. 

Up front we need to get some competition for Watkins in that Striker role with Duran as 3rd Striker. Bailey is the RF and Traore as backup but I think we need to sign someone a proper cut above them and move Traore on. That target is clearly Nico Williams 

Finally another midfielder ala Guendouzi who can play CM or RM. I feel Emery wants Buendia, JJ and one of Coutinho and McGinn. We can easily see Coutinho moving on. 

I think those are the 4 key signings. The first three are the most key I think. 

 

Well he could use Mings as an inverted left back (as there isn't much difference between a ball playing centre back that used to be a fullback and a 6 fullback cross) with Cash RB, and Duran right striker. Put Bailey left wing (where he is better suited), as left forward then have Buendia inside him. If Duran is good enough this could be extremely effective. A diagonal ball from Mings to Duran could be a nice little pressure reliever. Plus Mings carrying to ball into midfield from left back.

Also if you have a big tall striker on the right having a left winger pumping in crosses from the left.  Bailey can certainly cross.

[Sulberto21]

43 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

You bathe your baby in the sink while you are washing up? 

Just kidding.

Or sometimes the washing machine. That’s what the ‘delicates’ setting is for ? Right? Somebody? 

[HKP90]

5 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

Or sometimes the washing machine. That’s what the ‘delicates’ setting is for ? Right? Somebody? 

I'm just thinking that 5 years of my life would have been made infinitely easier if I could have put my two mucky sons in the dishwasher to get them clean. No mucky handprints on the wall, floor, carpet....ceiling. Bliss.

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

 

Yes I can see how Emery wants us playing now. I see it as there are three different phases the defensive shape, the build up shape and the attacking shape.

We all know it's a 4 4 2 mid block in defensive. It can become a 5 3 2 or a 6 2 2 / 6 3 1 at times too of needed.

It's the build up phase which is interesting the left back is meant to operate as a winger essentially and the Right back as a RCB. 

So we get this 3 4 3 or 3 2 2 3 in the build up phase. With LB and RF either side of a central Striker as the forward three. So between a 3 2 4 1 and a 3 2 2 3 at times. Then in the final attacking phase the RB joins the midfield and the two wide Midfielders join the final line to make a 2 3 5 attack.

So what we need from a RB is this Cancelo/Zinchenko type midfield play maker hybrid with a Right sided CB. So a mix of a 6 and a RB. Player needs recovery pace like the rest of the back 4. A bit of height too probably welcome but not essential. I think this is a key position for Summer. 

For LB we have two good options. Teams who are going to sit deeper Digne might be the better option. Moreno for when we need the pace. 

Up front we need to get some competition for Watkins in that Striker role with Duran as 3rd Striker. Bailey is the RF and Traore as backup but I think we need to sign someone a proper cut above them and move Traore on. That target is clearly Nico Williams 

Finally another midfielder ala Guendouzi who can play CM or RM. I feel Emery wants Buendia, JJ and one of Coutinho and McGinn. We can easily see Coutinho moving on. 

I think those are the 4 key signings. The first three are the most key I think. 

 

Spot on with the targets I think. Need better than Bailey or more competition with Bailey. Clearly need a Cancelo/Zinchenko/Rico Williams to play the broad variety and responsibility of that position. I think Konsa will be rotation and I don't think Unai is quite happy with Chambers as the 4th CB. And then Guendouzi who can be deployed in multiple areas along the midfield line. Buendia, JJ, and McGinn I feel will stay. He's giving Coutinho a shot and from everything I've heard, Coutinho is a good pro - but perhaps not cut out for the pace and power of the prem anymore.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

23 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Well he could use Mings as an inverted left back (as there isn't much difference between a ball playing centre back that used to be a fullback and a 6 fullback cross) with Cash RB, and Duran right striker. Put Bailey left wing (where he is better suited), as left forward then have Buendia inside him. If Duran is good enough this could be extremely effective. A diagonal ball from Mings to Duran could be a nice little pressure reliever. Plus Mings carrying to ball into midfield from left back.

Also if you have a big tall striker on the right having a left winger pumping in crosses from the left.  Bailey can certainly cross.

People always forget Mings started out as a LB as well.