Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Delphinho123]

4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

What if these players were regarded more as squad players rather than starters which you can kind of see happening already?

I don’t think it’s realistic to have a whole squad of players better than those you just mentioned.

I think if that were to happen, we’d be challenging for Europe. 

[Kingman]

Have any journos asked any proper questions lately, like why we have 2 youth keepers on the bench? 

[Tomaszk]

47 minutes ago, Kingman said:

Have any journos asked any proper questions lately, like why we have 2 youth keepers on the bench? 

Ha, no.

It's same questions from same faces nearly every week.

Daz Hayle asks for team news, Tom Ross asks an awful leading question like "Is the team confident after winning last week?".

Someone might read this and ask this week, who knows.

[sne]

I don't watch much La Liga football these days but the intensity in pressing in the PL compared to in Spain is quite different I'd say. Might be wrong on that but that's from what I've seen. Playing out from the back is riskier here and especially with the players we currently have in the back 5. Getting it right will take time, practice and likely some new players. Perfectly fine with us using this season to work on it thou.

[gwi1890]

6 minutes ago, sne said:

I don't watch much La Liga football these days but the intensity in pressing in the PL compared to in Spain is quite different I'd say. Might be wrong on that but that's from what I've seen. Playing out from the back is riskier here and especially with the players we currently have in the back 5. Getting it right will take time, practice and likely some new players. Perfectly fine with us using this season to work on it thou.

I regularly watch La liga the pace is slightly slower but the tactical structure and pattern of play is similar , hence why all the best coaches and players from there are coming here and why traditional premier league managers can’t find work.

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, sne said:

I don't watch much La Liga football these days but the intensity in pressing in the PL compared to in Spain is quite different I'd say. Might be wrong on that but that's from what I've seen. Playing out from the back is riskier here and especially with the players we currently have in the back 5. Getting it right will take time, practice and likely some new players. Perfectly fine with us using this season to work on it thou.

The current prem is a mix of both, part of the reason that few premier league teams can carry passengers anymore. You have to both be tactically astute but also able to handle the ferocity and pace of prem pressing.

At the top half of the table, I'd say only Brentford and Newcastle play a less continental style and even Frank and Howe employ a lot of different tactical tweaks and adjustments for each opponent  and in-game.

Counter-attacking can only take you so far and whilst counter-attacking can be effective in tournament style football, you ultimately need to control and possess the ball to have sustained success in the premier league (and otherwise to be honest).

[Lerner's Driver]

On 28/02/2023 at 23:28, Kingman said:

Have any journos asked any proper questions lately, like why we have 2 youth keepers on the bench? 

That is really curious isn't it? Does anyone on here have any theories?

Obviously, in general, we don't have that many players available who can step in, but what about the outfield youth prospects?

Even if they are just sat on the bench, surely that makes more sense than filling a sub spot with a goalie that has zero chance of playing in the match?

[tomsky_11]

On 27/02/2023 at 20:11, villa4europe said:

The athletics insta has a passing analysis thing up with the comment "from Aston villas disconnected midfield..."

Anyone know what they've said about us?

Referring to this, which doesn't mean much since we've changed manager and not played 4-3-3 since:

[villa4europe]

4 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Referring to this, which doesn't mean much since we've changed manager and not played 4-3-3 since:

kamaras injury too, does look crazy though that we dont or didnt get our holding midfielder on the ball

and that arsenal dont play out from ramsdale and hold a higher line than us

and that no one seemingly gets their striker on the ball

[DJBOB]

50 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

kamaras injury too, does look crazy though that we dont or didnt get our holding midfielder on the ball

and that arsenal dont play out from ramsdale and hold a higher line than us

and that no one seemingly gets their striker on the ball

Just a larger symptom of the majority of big clubs playing the same system. Wide overloads to draw out defenders and then finishing with the striker or isolated on the far side.

In the Athletic article, only Bournemouth and Leeds have something resembling a 442 shape with their passes.

[TRO]

On 13/02/2023 at 10:37, Reivax_Villa said:

I think we need a rebuild and a potential overhaul, not because we have lost two in a row but mainly because we have a squad built up of 3 managers.

Leading towards the summer when Grealish got sold, the squad has been poorly constructed and although we have some good pieces i.e (Kamara and Dougie..  ) we are very passive defensively and lack physicality. 

I don't expect this all to happen this summer and this could potentially take two seasons for the players that were with us in the first season to be moved on..

The hard part, is getting that widely accepted....until we do, it will take some time to change.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Just a larger symptom of the majority of big clubs playing the same system. Wide overloads to draw out defenders and then finishing with the striker or isolated on the far side.

In the Athletic article, only Bournemouth and Leeds have something resembling a 442 shape with their passes.

but shapes morph during play....we sometimes play 4-2-3-1 with the ball and 4-4-2 without the ball.

overloads, take place with the dynamics of the game, which inadvertently create under loads, too...its all about how players exploit, or capitalise.

All systems have an upside and a downside....one fix,in one area,  creates another flaw, in another.......Intelligent, and athletic players are needed to fulfill systems and make them work, to great effect.

Systems are a form of organisation and a plan.......without the application, they flounder.

Managers do not agree on one System to suit all.....so unless it renders wins, its arguably not working.

Not sure what the system was supposed to be against Leicester or Stevenage?..but hey ho.

Its one element amongst many to get right.

Ps I can honestly say, I have never walked out of a football ground and said " The system never worked today, I can't say, I have ever heard anyone else say it too"

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

but shapes morph during play....we sometimes play 4-2-3-1 with the ball and 4-4-2 without the ball.

overloads, take place with the dynamics of the game, which inadvertently create under loads, too...its all about how players exploit, or capitalise.

All systems have an upside and a downside....one fix,in one area,  creates another flaw, in another.......Intelligent, and athletic players are needed to fulfill systems and make them work, to great effect.

Systems are a form of organisation and a plan.......without the application, they flounder.

Managers do not agree on one System to suit all.....so unless it renders wins, its arguably not working.

Not sure what the system was supposed to be against Leicester or Stevenage?..but hey ho.

Its one element amongst many to get right.

Ps I can honestly say, I have never walked out of a football ground and said " The system never worked today, I can't say, I have ever heard anyone else say it too"

 

 

Sorry - most of the big clubs play a similar shape and system when attacking today. The best managers tweak and change them within game so they are tilted towards certain parts of the pitch, but by in large they all build in a shape largely influenced by Pep's 325. Sometimes its 235, sometimes its 325, but even the passing charts show similar build ups on all the top sides.

They are and can be different game to game, but there's no escaping the current flavor of attack.

[TRO]

13 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Sorry - most of the big clubs play a similar shape and system when attacking today. The best managers tweak and change them within game so they are tilted towards certain parts of the pitch, but by in large they all build in a shape largely influenced by Pep's 325. Sometimes its 235, sometimes its 325, but even the passing charts show similar build ups on all the top sides.

They are and can be different game to game, but there's no escaping the current flavor of attack.

I don't dismiss stats, but I still rely heavily on the naked eye.....They do conflict on occasions, but I favour watching the game for conclusions.

Stats don't always give a rounded picture, as much as the naked eye does, IMO

I know its all the rage, now.....and it would be foolish to ignore them, but watching the game gives me more concise info of the overall analysis.

However, I do accept Stats are more factual and the naked eye, opinion based.

I can go back in time before Stats came in to football.....and there was some pretty good analysts in the crowd, who wasn't far away from what was actually happening in a game.

Edited March 3, 2023 by TRO

[CVByrne]

I found this interesting as we use a box midfield

 

When we get to Xavi's Barcelona we see it more close to Emery. He plays with 4 central midfielders 6s/8s/10s whatever like we do. He also has the attacking LB to form part of the front three with Gavi and Pedri coming centrally to make the box like we do. So it's very close to how we set up with Bailey playing role of Dembele. Interestingly he also plays with 3 CBs as Kounde is in the RB slot

I think it's the 2nd biggest position for us to change this summer is the RCB/RB position. Alongside an attacker who can play with Watkins up top.

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I found this interesting as we use a box midfield

 

When we get to Xavi's Barcelona we see it more close to Emery. He plays with 4 central midfielders 6s/8s/10s whatever like we do. He also has the attacking LB to form part of the front three with Gavi and Pedri coming centrally to make the box like we do. So it's very close to how we set up with Bailey playing role of Dembele. Interestingly he also plays with 3 CBs as Kounde is in the RB slot

I think it's the 2nd biggest position for us to change this summer is the RCB/RB position. Alongside an attacker who can play with Watkins up top.

The problem is we have been undone several times with long balls over the top, in to the space vacated by the full backs....we need to remember, overloads create underloads....intelligent, athletic players, adjust to these things quicker.

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

The problem is we have been undone several times with long balls over the top, in to the space vacated by the full backs....we need to remember, overloads create underloads....intelligent, athletic players, adjust to these things quicker.

I think this is because the system requires 3 CBs and we pay with 2. Emery at Villareal and Xavi and Arteta all have a CB at RB. If we lose one key defender (who requires recovery pace) in the system we are vulnerable at home due to the high line. A RCB will be better with natural positioning than say Cash will who is used to being a more attacking RB.

[TRO]

On 02/03/2023 at 21:01, DJBOB said:

Sorry - most of the big clubs play a similar shape and system when attacking today. The best managers tweak and change them within game so they are tilted towards certain parts of the pitch, but by in large they all build in a shape largely influenced by Pep's 325. Sometimes its 235, sometimes its 325, but even the passing charts show similar build ups on all the top sides.

They are and can be different game to game, but there's no escaping the current flavor of attack.

Most of the bigger clubs have better players, to play the shape they do.

Most of the big influencers in World Football over time, Rinus Michels, Johann Cryuff, Bobby Robson, Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, Pep Guardiola....Had the players to do it with.

No system or Shape will negate poor quality player....you have to make the most of what you have got.....A system will not bail you out of poor play.

There are only 11 players on the pitch, no matter what permutation is sought.....2 or 3 off it, and its a problem, no system will fix.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I think this is because the system requires 3 CBs and we pay with 2. Emery at Villareal and Xavi and Arteta all have a CB at RB. If we lose one key defender (who requires recovery pace) in the system we are vulnerable at home due to the high line. A RCB will be better with natural positioning than say Cash will who is used to being a more attacking RB.

I agree.....is why I would use Konsa there, when Carlos is back.

We have been expecting 2 centre backs to do all the defending, under the 2 previous managers.....Unai does seem to want Cash further back.

[gwi1890]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I found this interesting as we use a box midfield

 

When we get to Xavi's Barcelona we see it more close to Emery. He plays with 4 central midfielders 6s/8s/10s whatever like we do. He also has the attacking LB to form part of the front three with Gavi and Pedri coming centrally to make the box like we do. So it's very close to how we set up with Bailey playing role of Dembele. Interestingly he also plays with 3 CBs as Kounde is in the RB slot

I think it's the 2nd biggest position for us to change this summer is the RCB/RB position. Alongside an attacker who can play with Watkins up top.

Yes we’ve played a similar system to the Barca one and the Chelsea one. I think Emery wants options I’ve noticed he doesn’t ask Cash to tuck in as an extra Centre Back but does so with Young. Going forward I think we’ll see and attacking  option for the right and left as well as a  defensive option.