Team shape, tactics and personnel

[GENTLEMAN]

3 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Smith needs to be brave here. 

Do no play 4-4-2 just to get Ings and Watkins in the same team. 

I'm afraid you'll have to bench one of them. 

Got to agree to a point. Seemed like they were taking it in turns in rotating as 'no 10's'.Don't think it worked. However, they've only played 45 mins together. We are developing squad options to be able to play in numerous ways. 

[djdabush]

I wonder if Smith will consider going 3-5-2 next week if Bailey and Buendia are both out. 

[TomC]

2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

 

Do no play 4-4-2 just to get Ings and Watkins in the same team. 

Agreed, but I don't think that we need to play 4-4-2 to get them in the same team.

Watkins often played on the left at Brentford. Whether we play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, he'll be out on the left of the front 3. Ings will be the 1 in the 4-2-3-1 or the middle of the front 3 in the 4-3-3.

 

 

 

[AndFos]

Lets try Watkins as left winger in the first game in a 4-3-3 if Bailey can't start. That is the 9nly way I can see Watkins amd Ings starting together. if that does not work lets start one of them from the Newcastle game and onwards.

[sir_gary_cahill]

3 minutes ago, AndFos said:

Lets try Watkins as left winger in the first game in a 4-3-3 if Bailey can't start. That is the 9nly way I can see Watkins amd Ings starting together. if that does not work lets start one of them from the Newcastle game and onwards.

Watkins for me isn’t a winger, he’s too much of a goal threat, he might’ve played there for previous clubs but he has a natural instinct in front of goal that would be negated if he played on the wing

[Monkeypuzzle]

How about this formation as a way of fitting in our best players and not playing them out of positions they are familiar with?

 

                        Ings                                                                            Watkins      Ings      Bailey

Watkins      Buendia       Bailey                                                                        Buendia

           Douglas     McGinn                                 or                                   Douglas     McGinn           

Targett   Mings   Konsa   Cash                                                     Targett   Mings   Konsa   Cash

                     Martinez                                                                                         Martinez

Subs: Steer, Hause, Young, Sanson, Nakamba, Traore, Philogene-Bidace

Rotation: Guilbert, Tuanzebe, Ramsey, Chukwuemeka, El Ghazi

 

Anyone I've not mentioned I am assuming we won't see at any point this season. Don't worry if you'd swap the odd player here and there from the bench, it's the formation I'm more thinking of for this. Lots of people keep talking about 4-4-2 or some other way of playing two up top but we are best when using 4-2-3-1 or some version of 4-3-3 I feel.

Obviously this list requires everyone to be fit and settled so I don't expect to see it straight away, but the formation allows our better players to all play in areas they can be effective. Watkins is a big upgrade on Grealish when it comes to closing down on the wing or as a wide forward, Ings is similar to Watkins at closing down and I believe that someone showed stats that suggested that Bailey was better than Traore at closing down. Most importantly, Buendia's defensive work is head and shoulders above Barkley's. Combined, that should greatly reduce the pressure on the defense and deeper lying midfielders. Both Watkins and Bailey can cut inside on to their stronger foot, but both are quite comfortable on their weaker foot if needed. Buendia's defensive work is a key reason I think he would be best in the middle rather than on the right.

To be fair the front four can largely mix around throughout games to disrupt their markers. The majority of our bench and rotation players don't feel like a huge step down in quality any more. Another deep lying midfielder would be lovely but isn't vital and we have several youngsters who can really start to make an impact this season. Good times. Let's just try to keep everyone fit and healthy!

[nick76]

On 04/08/2021 at 23:47, Keyblade said:

Looks like Deano finally got his wish and is going to be running that straight up 4-3-3 with 3 legit forwards and 3 CMs.

This!

[nick76]

On 05/08/2021 at 22:11, theboyangel said:

So who takes the number 10 shirt??

Ings or Bailey?

whoever doesn’t, is likely to get the no.9 shirt off Wesley. 

The club already announced Buendia has the 10 shirt, Ings is 20.  No shirt number assigned for Bailey announced yet so rumour is he’s waiting for the 9 jersey

[TomC]

24 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

Watkins for me isn’t a winger, he’s too much of a goal threat, he might’ve played there for previous clubs but he has a natural instinct in front of goal that would be negated if he played on the wing

He wouldn't be a traditional wing on the left delivering crosses; like Grealish, he's mostly right-footed. He'd cut in from the left.

[Herman22]

We saw a glimpse of what Ings and Watkins can do together (Watkins scuffed the shot and went off injured). So I think they can play together. But the system needs to work for the whole team. 3-5-2 seems the most likely to work. 

[El-Reacho]

5 hours ago, GENTLEMAN said:

Got to agree to a point. Seemed like they were taking it in turns in rotating as 'no 10's'.Don't think it worked. However, they've only played 45 mins together. We are developing squad options to be able to play in numerous ways. 

Athletico Madrid have just won la liga with a formation similar to what we had out today - with the rotating no.10s thing, with two wide men. It’s class to watch - maybe that’s how we’re going to line up this season.

[PieFacE]

 

hmmmm... this kinda scares the shit out of me.

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

 

hmmmm... this kinda scares the shit out of me.

 

Why?

[Daweii]

I'd love to know how Tom Collomosse knows what Smith is intending. Our planned formation doesn't seem like something Smith would talk about publicly before the season has begun. 

[villalad21]

So he is going to experiment with different formations just before a new season. 

In a formation that will leave our already frail midfield even more exposed. 

This could be the end of him. 

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

So he is going to experiment with different formations just before a new season. 

In a formation that will leave our already frail midfield even more exposed. 

This could be the end of him. 

He's just lost his star player and signed several new first team players. Whatever he does is going to be an experiment.

[Kiwivillan]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

So he is going to experiment with different formations just before a new season. 

In a formation that will leave our already frail midfield even more exposed. 

This could be the end of him. 

Maybe he gets sacked and we lure Bielsa and his assistant, Mr Bucket

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, Daweii said:

I'd love to know how Tom Collomosse knows what Smith is intending. Our planned formation doesn't seem like something Smith would talk about publicly before the season has begun. 

It's just an educated guess, probably isn't it? Take a few things you've heard Smith say about Watkins and Ings, look at the pre-season lineups, etc. There are only so many ways of setting up a football team.

I think we will try 4-4-2 because Shakespeare is a fan of a 4-4-2. But it'll be a "modern" 4-4-2, with very disciplined pressing from front to back - not the old, long ball, quick man / big man 4-4-2 from the 90s. Alex Ferguson's later version of 4-4-2 used to turn into 4-5-1 defensively, with Rooney tucking back as a winger, and I could see Watkins or Ings being asked to do that.

There's a really interesting piece here about the rise of the 4-4-2 in Spain https://betweentheposts.net/laliga-revolt-4-4-2-formation-corona-covid-restart/

Quote

For decades, the British isles have been thought of as the home of directness, long balls and the 4-4-2 formation. However, in 2020, teams in LaLiga seem to be using these tactics more than teams in the English Premier League. 

Written by José Pérez.

 

Spanish teams now implement 4-4-2 blocks and other formations with two strikers more often, too. Twelve LaLiga teams use a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 formation as their primary defensive shape, compared to eight English teams. Nine Spanish teams play primarily with a pair of strikers while only six English teams do the same. What were the reasons for this “British style” takeover in LaLiga? Will the seafood paellas be ultimately replaced with fish and chips? 

 

Surviving the era of pressing and transitions in Spain

Fortunately for lovers of Spanish food, the root of this phenomenon does not seem to have anything to do with a British cultural invasion. Most of the inspiration has come from teams that were promoted to LaLiga and survived in the division over the last six seasons through the use of direct 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 blocks, setting the tone for other LaLiga teams who also adopted these kinds of tactics. Some teams implemented more aggressive pressing blocks – Osasuna, Getafe, Eibar – some of them have done it through deeper blocks – Leganés 2016-18, Valladolid, Alavés, Mallorca.

We often played a 4-4-1-1 last season, with Barkley as second striker. A more aggressive presser like Ings could make that look more coherent.

Let's see. Smith has the resources now to vary our formation more often from game to game. Should be interesting.

[DCJonah]

7 hours ago, nepal_villan said:

Agree with this. Also needs to start Young ahead of El Ghazi.

You think Smith needs to be brave and bench our best attacker last year or one of the league best forwards that we've just signed? 

Do we not think Ings was signed with a plan in mind. 

[DCJonah]

15 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

He's just lost his star player and signed several new first team players. Whatever he does is going to be an experiment.

Yep. I hope the usual crowd show just a little patience this season.

We're going from Grealish F.C to building a proper team with new and exciting attacking players. It might not click instantly.