Wolves

[avfc456]

On 03/03/2018 at 09:14, Rugeley Villa said:

Wolves are going all blues on us. Apparently shit loads will be in the villa end when we play them. Granted, might be a few hundred, but that's about it. Always remember them failing to sell out at villa park two years on the bounce when they were in the prem. one of those games they were 1.000 short of selling out with the other being 4-500.

I remember this, one being a early kick off under McLeish, they cited price as a reason, they have also done the same at small heath with hundreds of tickets going unsold

Also I noticed in the upper trinity there are a few tickets along the very back rows that have been sold, which I always find suspicious in games like this

Edited March 5, 2018 by avfc456

[sne]

Surely any penalty would be for the next season and not this one?

Would have to be a really severe breach of rules if they would not be allowed to be promoted should they finish top 2. It's a £100-200m penalty. That's harsh unless they have committed crimes against humanity.

Giving them an arbitrary point deduction this season would be suspect unless there is a very clear guideline for how many points it should be.

11 points puts them outside promotion, 20 outside the play off, 44 in relegation...

It would make this whole season a bit of a farce.

Edited March 5, 2018 by sne

[Rugeley Villa]

27 minutes ago, avfc456 said:

I remember this, one being a early kick off under McLeish, they cited price as a reason, they have also done the same at small heath with hundreds of tickets going unsold

Also I noticed in the upper trinity there are a few tickets along the very back rows that have been sold, which I always find suspicious in games like this

The one season they only had 1800 at our place, with 1k unsold tickets. 

[rodders0223]

Nothing will come of it. As always.

[Andy81]

For the record, if they've done anything wrong, then I hope it's uncovered.

It seems as if the unnamed club is unhappy because we have got good players for cheap, which seems a little far-fetched as we're no better off than Newcastle were at this stage last year.

Neves being our best signing was cheap, but this I believe is because Porto desperately needed cash, anyone was free to sign him, but it's fair to say, we probably had better knowledge of the situation than most.  Is this against the rules?  I really don't know.

Jota is on loan, as he was at Porto last season.  Did Porto break any rules signing him on loan?

There have been plenty of players turn us down in the last 18 months, as well as the current Spain manager.

The relationship with Mendes is one people always point to, but this isn't unique, just seems to be out of order as it's Wolves.  I believe most of Small Heath's signings came from the same agent in the summer, Man Utd deal with mainly one too, and a few years ago Doncaster had an arrangement with Willy Mckay.

As I say, if Wolves have done anything wrong, then the club should be punished, I can't see what they have done wrong from the outside other than build a network.

[PieFacE]

Surely we've spent a similar amount if not more than Wolves?

[Nigel]

1 hour ago, sne said:

Surely any penalty would be for the next season and not this one?

Would have to be a really severe breach of rules if they would not be allowed to be promoted should they finish top 2. It's a £100-200m penalty. That's harsh unless they have committed crimes against humanity.

Giving them an arbitrary point deduction this season would be suspect unless there is a very clear guideline for how many points it should be.

11 points puts them outside promotion, 20 outside the play off, 44 in relegation...

It would make this whole season a bit of a farce.

I think we should be allowed to pick their points punishment as we are their nearest neighbours...we are almost family. 

However this has to be done after the season as not to distract them from the remain games ....that would be unfair!

[Daweii]

2 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

Surely we've spent a similar amount if not more than Wolves?

We can back it up (for the time being) due to the parachute payments.

That said I think the accusations are more about the Jorge Mendes situation at Wolves. The manager is a client of his while almost half of the first team are clients of his.

It's a very cunning way to get around FFP if he's there pulling strings, he knows his clients go up in value if Wolves get promoted so selling/loaning them to Wolves on the cheap is in his best interest long term as an agent. 

I think the question ultimately is - Would Wolves have been able to acquire the services Nuni Espirito Santo, Helder Costa, Ruben Neves, Diogo Jota, Ivan Cavaleiro and Rafa Mir without Jorge Mendes?

If yes, then the question would be concerning if they could have done it as cheaply as they have. If no, then it becomes a likely more serious matter as then fair play truly would be in question. 

I ultimately don't know and I like to believe Wolves have done it legit.

[bobzy]

22 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

Surely we've spent a similar amount if not more than Wolves?

It's not purely an FFP issue in terms of spending.  Rumours are that if/when promoted, Wolves would be subject to the "fit and proper owners" test and the Premier League aren't happy.

I have no idea what the hell happens if the Premier League "block" a promotion.  Would be hilarious, though  

[Andy81]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

It's not purely an FFP issue in terms of spending.  Rumours are that if/when promoted, Wolves would be subject to the "fit and proper owners" test and the Premier League aren't happy.

I have no idea what the hell happens if the Premier League "block" a promotion.  Would be hilarious, though  

Where would Wolves fall down there?  If Small Heath were fine with Carson Jung or whatever his name was, I don't see how Fosun wouldn't be a fit owner.

Again with Mendes, clearly Wolves have a relationship with him, I fail to see how this is against the rules however.

I think one of the key principles of Fosun is to have good relationships with key people, no matter what business, it looks like this is what they have done with Mendes, and it's generally working.

He also brought in a lot of shit last year, like Ola John and some Portuguese full back who then went on to be shit for Forest too, no one seemed to complain then!

[PieFacE]

18 minutes ago, Daweii said:

 

I think the question ultimately is - Would Wolves have been able to acquire the services Nuni Espirito Santo, Helder Costa, Ruben Neves, Diogo Jota, Ivan Cavaleiro and Rafa Mir without Jorge Mendes?

If yes, then the question would be concerning if they could have done it as cheaply as they have. If no, then it becomes a likely more serious matter as then fair play truly would be in question. 

 

But there's nothing wrong with having contacts in the game surely? 

[bobzy]

6 minutes ago, Andy81 said:

Where would Wolves fall down there?  If Small Heath were fine with Carson Jung or whatever his name was, I don't see how Fosun wouldn't be a fit owner.

"The fit-and-proper-person test or director's test is a test aiming to prevent corrupt or untrustworthy businessmen from serving on the board of certain organizations"

(Link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fit-and-proper-person_test)

 

Mendes advised your current owners to buy the club, then facilitated the appointment of your manager and the purchase of several players - all of who he is the agent for.  I'm not saying Wolves necessarily would "fall down", but it is quite clearly a set up that may well involve a corrupt and/or untrustworthy businessman having far too much influence.

[VillaAlex]

I think the whole thing is a bit shady, as they are Champions League players going for what a Championship player goes for these days. However I don't think they have broken any rules, nor will they be punished for it. Exploiting loopholes if anything that have been there for a while now.

[sne]

Not sure the PL would want to start looking under this rock.

Once they do bigger and more influential clubs and people might be coming under scrutiny.

The whole agent business in football is broken, clubs are routinely finding shady ways to get money by going round FFP and spending money they don't really have.

If they want to make an example out of Wolves to show they are being serious then fine. But that would be all they are doing.

[Daweii]

1 minute ago, PieFacE said:

But there's nothing wrong with having contacts in the game surely? 

I have no idea on that side of things as I don't think a club has ever been so directly linked to an agent like this, though I could be wrong maybe someone with more knowledge could help there. 

[mykeyb]

Wasnt the complaint that these players arent being paid the sort of wages they should command for the size of the transfer fees they are likely to command, I am not sure hwo that would work or how it could be proven to break the rules. Isnt Mendez on the board in some way rather than just being used to bring players in?

If the big boys in the Premier feel that Wolves might prove to be an issue next season you can guarantee that the calls for clarity will become louder and more influential......

[HanoiVillan]

55 minutes ago, bobzy said:

"The fit-and-proper-person test or director's test is a test aiming to prevent corrupt or untrustworthy businessmen from serving on the board of certain organizations"

(Link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fit-and-proper-person_test)

 

Mendes advised your current owners to buy the club, then facilitated the appointment of your manager and the purchase of several players - all of who he is the agent for.  I'm not saying Wolves necessarily would "fall down", but it is quite clearly a set up that may well involve a corrupt and/or untrustworthy businessman having far too much influence.

To be honest, I completely share your concerns. I don't think it can be considered ethical for an agent to advise a club on which players and managers to purchase and appoint when they get a (massive) cut of the deal, and I can't for the life of me see how an agent acting on both sides of a deal can be getting a good deal for all parties (buying club, selling club, player and agent).

That being said, nothing will come of this. Nobody is going to push for Jorge Mendes to be ruled a 'corrupt or untrustworthy businessman' since all PL clubs have had some dealings or other with him, and other clubs use agents in similar ways, even if not exactly the same (Mino Raiola and Man Utd, for example). It's bad, and it's wrong, but I don't see it changing.

[LakotaDakota]

They would just get a fine, same as leicester & bournemouth. Both breached ffp rules getting promoted, bournemouth paid 7 mil & leicester 3 mil

[Andy81]

7 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

They would just get a fine, same as leicester & bournemouth. Both breached ffp rules getting promoted, bournemouth paid 7 mil & leicester 3 mil

I don't think this is about FFP, quite the opposite actually, we're not spending enough on these players apparently  

[Rob182]

3 hours ago, Andy81 said:

The relationship with Mendes is one people always point to, but this isn't unique, just seems to be out of order as it's Wolves.  I believe most of Small Heath's signings came from the same agent in the summer, Man Utd deal with mainly one too, and a few years ago Doncaster had an arrangement with Willy Mckay.

As I say, if Wolves have done anything wrong, then the club should be punished, I can't see what they have done wrong from the outside other than build a network.

I don't think it's anything to do with the fact that 'it's Wolves'. I don't think any of the clubs in the league care about you that much  I think the issue, as someone mentioned a few posts up, is that you've essentially been able to sign Premier League quality players on, presumably, Championship wages, and for Championship transfer fees, or minimal loan fees. The issue for Wolves will arise if it turns out that there have been some 'extra' fees passed around, either to compensate the clubs selling or loaning out those players, or to the players themselves for playing in a league which, could be considered to be, 'below their station'.

 

If there are no dodgy fees knocking around, then you're probably right, and Wolves probably won't have done anything wrong, and it's just a case of them benefiting from a very savvy relationship to an agent. But I think everyone looking in from the outside is suspicious that there could be some form of 'advisory payments' or similar that may have found their way through Mendes or one of his related companies into the pockets of the mentioned players or clubs.