The manager situation

[useless]

I haven't voted because I think the owners will do what they feel is right regardless of what we think. They've done a good job up until now so will trust their decision.

[Mister_a]

4 hours ago, hippo said:

In 80 years time everyone on this forum will be dead. And none of this will matter.

Some 15 year old on the forum is going to quote this on his 95th birthday, in an act of thread necromancy never before seen.

[KMitch]

5 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

To be fair, thats one way of looking at it.

The other way of looking at it, is that some of those managers, would have had a different squad and approach, or sign/prioritise different types of players since they have been here, which could have seen the unit be more effective.

So this wouldn't necessarily have been " the squad "

I don't buy that.  We spent the past 3 seasons building a DoF/Recruitment/Analytics team and system for scouting/signing players who fit the same system we've put in place from the U18s up through the 1st team.  I don't care who we have as the manager now, the club won't sanction signings that aren't vetted and endorsed properly by all parties within the team.  Now, the one thing a world class manager would bring to us is possibly being able to tip the scales in our favor when signing some highly sought after talent.  Someone might not be really interested in playing for mid-table Aston Villa, but would be interested in playing for the manager, regardless of the club.  

I still think expecting European footy this season, without Jack, was not even a realistic expectation barely anyone had before the season even began.  Now, I'm seeing Deano getting criticized for bad recruitment and for missing out on Europe by some here, which wasn't even a discussion this summer.  

[OutByEaster?]

Commercially, contracts for new managers now take a lot longer than they used to - you're generally talking about the size of contract that a good sized company would have a team working on for half a year - and with the negotiations now having to include stuff like image rights, online marketing and the personal sponsors of the manager aligning with the way in which the teams sponsors want to use their manager, it's a complicated business.

These people are millionaire superstars - the days of Neil Warnock coming off his tractor to take training are over, Jose Mourinho has his own investment company sponsor, that has to match up with the demands of whatever investment sponsor the club already has, does his gambling advert work with Paddy Power fit in with your clubs gambling sponsor? Are you happy that he doesn't work two afternoons a week as he has commitments with his property and investment companies? He's got individual sponsorship deals with Adidas, Braun, American Express, Jaguar and Samsung, as well as Heineken, EA Sports, Atlantis Hotels and Hublot - all of those have got to be accounted for if you want him.

And then these managers have agents, they have preferred staff, they have demands on the type of contracts those staff receive, on the standards of living accommodation, health and school arrangements in place for those teams, they have managers that look after their image, protect their reputations and impose restrictions on what your contract with them allows you to do, and they have lawyers trying to make sure that the contract you sign always ends up bent in the direction of their client.

These aren't blokes in tracksuits any more, these are businessmen in charge of the business of themselves, the business of a football manager increasingly includes a pretty big team. You're not just signing a bloke up to train the side for a couple of years, you're merging your company with his in a quite peculiar arrangement. 

The higher you go, the bigger the manager and the bigger the manager, the more complicated the deal. I'm not sure any club can now sack a manager on Saturday and have a new one on Monday - Spurs never really stopped talking to Conte, even after they hired Nuno.

If we've got someone lined up, then someone has been working hard on it for a little while.

 

 

 

 

[tomsky_11]

4 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

To be perfectly honest,yes I do.I think this team is very capable of a top 6 finish.

I agree, this current squad on paper, though not one of the best 6, could IMO certainly achieve that kind of finish in the right circumstances. I said before my expectations preseason were 6th-10th. Problem is, we've in no way been able to consistently utilise the best of this squad this season due to absences. Judging Smith on the squad he's actually had available for each game so far this season somewhere between 12th and 17th is probably fair. We probably should've had a point at Watford, maybe Spurs as well, 1 or even 3 more against Wolves and maybe a point against WHU. But then got 2/3 points more than expected against Utd. Brentford was the worst for player availibility so point to me was expected there. So at best I'm looking at probably 14 points for the season so far, at worst about 8.

[AntrimBlack]

The owners made absolutely the correct decision to bring Smith in to get us out of the CH and stabilised in the PL.

But I have never felt that he was good enough to take us any higher than that. I would be surprised if the owners and CEO thought he could.

It was inevitable that they would have to make a change at some point to push for top 6.

That time might be soon. But it will come.

[ferguson1]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

 

Neil Warnock coming off his tractor to take training 

 

You’ve cracked it!  Only question is should he start Saturday or wait until Monday? 

[avfc1982am]

46 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Commercially, contracts for new managers now take a lot longer than they used to - you're generally talking about the size of contract that a good sized company would have a team working on for half a year - and with the negotiations now having to include stuff like image rights, online marketing and the personal sponsors of the manager aligning with the way in which the teams sponsors want to use their manager, it's a complicated business.

These people are millionaire superstars - the days of Neil Warnock coming off his tractor to take training are over, Jose Mourinho has his own investment company sponsor, that has to match up with the demands of whatever investment sponsor the club already has, does his gambling advert work with Paddy Power fit in with your clubs gambling sponsor? Are you happy that he doesn't work two afternoons a week as he has commitments with his property and investment companies? He's got individual sponsorship deals with Adidas, Braun, American Express, Jaguar and Samsung, as well as Heineken, EA Sports, Atlantis Hotels and Hublot - all of those have got to be accounted for if you want him.

And then these managers have agents, they have preferred staff, they have demands on the type of contracts those staff receive, on the standards of living accommodation, health and school arrangements in place for those teams, they have managers that look after their image, protect their reputations and impose restrictions on what your contract with them allows you to do, and they have lawyers trying to make sure that the contract you sign always ends up bent in the direction of their client.

These aren't blokes in tracksuits any more, these are businessmen in charge of the business of themselves, the business of a football manager increasingly includes a pretty big team. You're not just signing a bloke up to train the side for a couple of years, you're merging your company with his in a quite peculiar arrangement. 

The higher you go, the bigger the manager and the bigger the manager, the more complicated the deal. I'm not sure any club can now sack a manager on Saturday and have a new one on Monday - Spurs never really stopped talking to Conte, even after they hired Nuno.

If we've got someone lined up, then someone has been working hard on it for a little while.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by avfc1982am

[John]

4 hours ago, hippo said:

In 80 years time everyone on this forum will be dead. And none of this will matter.

I know that there are still a few Villa fans knocking around that were born in/before 1941, so I doubt that quite everyone currently on this forum will be pushing up the daisies in 2101. For example, a 10 year-old member would be a sprightly 90 and aren't people living longer now? I would not bet on it though, as I won't be around to collect my winnings! 

Turning to the manager situation. We currently have 10 points from 10 games, should we continue to gather a point a game, then I suspect we would stay up (just). We are only 3 points clear of the bottom three though and we are in the bottom six, so relegation has to currently be a real possibility (it will be until we have another 28 points). 

Dean lost our talisman on the pitch before the season began and he has also lost two assistant head coaches in John Terry & Richard O'Kelly. This has unsettled us both on and off the pitch. This was always going to be a tough start and a tough season, and each of these departures from our club have increased the level of difficulty that we face. I really do hope that Dean can turn things around in the coming three games and get a minimum of 4 points from them. Sadly every defeat from now until Christmas, will bring us ever nearer to the drop zone and will see the owner's trigger fingers become increasingly itchy.   

[Mic09]

1 hour ago, useless said:

I haven't voted because I think the owners will do what they feel is right regardless of what we think. 

Do you reckon? 

Crap, I shouldn't have voted then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LondonVillian]

1 hour ago, useless said:

I haven't voted because I think the owners will do what they feel is right regardless of what we think. They've done a good job up until now so will trust their decision.

Yea because that's why the poll was made. 

[DaveAV1]

5 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

These people are millionaire superstars - the days of Neil Warnock coming off his tractor to take training are over

Neil Warnock it is then. He can even run his ride on over the first team training pitch after lunch. Too much of this fancy modern stuff creeping in. Let’s get back to basics!

Edited November 3, 2021 by DaveAV1

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Mister_a said:

Some 15 year old on the forum is going to quote this on his 95th birthday, in an act of thread necromancy never before seen.

With the launch of the Meta verse and Virtual Reality, we might be able to upload or digital souls on Villa Talk City before we kick the bucket, and argue about the same things for eternity.

Edited November 3, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[tonyh29]

Sack when we lose to Southampton

Without Covid he would have been sacked after the Leicester debacle  and results have not been consistent enough even when he had the premier leagues best player 

Long throws and turning into Pullis mk 2 has just become the final nail in the coffin 

[Awol]

Want Deano to turn it around, but not sure he has the personnel to do it unless Sanson or Carney (or both) are a revelation on Friday. Think signing Ings was the turning point, we needed a £30m CM and got a £30m striker. 

The owners won’t sit still and wait for Jan to fix the squad if we’re losing week after week, but any new manager faces the same problem. We are weak as p*ss in the middle. Everyone knew it in the summer but for whatever reason it wasn’t addressed. It’s now killing us (imo). 
 

[The Fun Factory]

2 hours ago, KMitch said:

It's not only that, they only go to clubs with a short term aim to "win now" instead of building for the future.  Look at the awful short-sighted signings on terrible 5-6 season deals teams make for players that these managers just had to have, but after the manager fooks off to the next "project" the next manager doesn't favor these ones and the club struggles to shift them.  Rinse and repeat over and over and the next thing you know, you have an unbalanced squad of aging overpaid specialists with 2-3 actual quality players (Spurs, Arsenal, Everton, etc.), and the club struggling to balance the books.  

True

[The Fun Factory]

2 hours ago, Mister_a said:

Some 15 year old on the forum is going to quote this on his 95th birthday, in an act of thread necromancy never before seen.

They will turn up on a documentary charting the rise and fall of football before the franchise wars.

'Ah yes I remember logging into Villa Talk to write codshit about Kenneth Williams and fish puns. What jolly japes we had.'

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, Awol said:

Want Deano to turn it around, but not sure he has the personnel to do it unless Sanson or Carney (or both) are a revelation on Friday. Think signing Ings was the turning point, we needed a £30m CM and got a £30m striker. 

I don't think it was either/or - we tried to sign Ward-Prowse after we'd bought Ings.

For me the big failing in our summer was not getting JWP and not having an alternative lined up when the deal didn't go through - I think ultimately that might cost the manager his job.

 

[TRO]

Unless there is a viable option to take over, with what looks like a feasible chance of improvement, I don't see the benefit of taking the gamble.

Dean's likeability has him not being hounded out, because the results and performances have been turgid....We all want to see a turnaround, but the likelyhood of that is questionable.

I am not looking at a long term for any manager,because its most unlikely....but I am looking for a winning manager, with a winning mentality and pedigree.

Having said all that .....a sequence of bad performances and results, unchecked has confidence busted, and a mountain to climb for any new guy.....a sign of a fight back must appear for Dean to be given another chance.

I feel much is known behind the scenes and we know very little of the detail required to give an informed view....and that is really important to be fair in comment.

I don't see, what many see, from the sequence of Deans results, not matter how far back you go, its very much hit and miss for me.

Whatever, the owners do, I have to support their judgment.

However, to say you have one, two or three more games, is not judging him properly, In my opinion, it should be more sophisticated than that.

I watch all the games and I am not convinced by many elements of what I see, on a consistent basis.

 

 

[TRO]

57 minutes ago, Awol said:

Want Deano to turn it around, but not sure he has the personnel to do it unless Sanson or Carney (or both) are a revelation on Friday. Think signing Ings was the turning point, we needed a £30m CM and got a £30m striker. 

The owners won’t sit still and wait for Jan to fix the squad if we’re losing week after week, but any new manager faces the same problem. We are weak as p*ss in the middle. Everyone knew it in the summer but for whatever reason it wasn’t addressed. It’s now killing us (imo). 
 

I agree

but paradoxically, that is not how the individual players playing there are appraised..

Edited November 3, 2021 by TRO