Emile Smith Rowe

[PieFacE]

Just now, RichiBoi11 said:

either way, aren't these nice problems to have.

Absolutely. 

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

29 minutes ago, KMitch said:

This.  Stats above include England appearances.  Jack is much more productive on the left.

I think the "Play Jack Middle" discussion comes from a couple of things:

1. He plays better there in FIFA 21 because he doesn't have pace to be a great on the left in the game
2. Traditionally the number 10 plays in the hole, so it's a common misconception that your most creative player will play best in that spot.  

Just looking at goals and assists isn't a great way of looking at it, as it tells you nothing of how players around him played. I still remember the Burnley game at home when he played through the middle and should've had about 10 assists.

Anyway, actually breaking it down in to his per game chance creation (below is 2020/21 - on the wing in green v centre in blue), he's more of a goal threat on the wing, but creates way more chances and is more involved in our build up through the middle, so it would make sense that playing through the middle with an upgrade on El Ghazi and Traore would lead to better output.

2019/20 you could make more of a case that he was better on the left, but he was much more heavily relied on by us that season and he still created better chances when through the middle.

 

Also, I really hate this trend on VT that anytime someone disagrees about a which position players would be better in or which players should start over others, it gets dismissed as "ahh, it's just cause he's better there on FIFA/FM", it just smacks of not being able to properly back up an argument, so it's easier to dismiss someone elses opinion as less valid.

 

Edit - just to keep this on topic, I think someone like Smith-Rowe would be the perfect type of player to allow us to move Grealish inside and then reap the rewards of his increased chance creation, whilst also retaining some chance creation from the wing.

Edited July 2, 2021 by MessiWillSignForVilla

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

I'd say Merson before Carew. JPA and Luc Nilis even. 

Carew was a swap for Baros, and in no way was seen as our biggest signing since Collymore. Ashley Young was 9.5 million, then Milner was 12.5m and so was Downing at 12.5m. All of them bigger signings than Carew.

[RichiBoi11]

3 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Carew was a swap for Baros, and in no way was seen as our biggest signing since Collymore. Ashley Young was 9.5 million, then Milner was 12.5m and so was Downing at 12.5m. All of them bigger signings than Carew.

No chance, Carew was bigger than me or you.

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

i think it could be any of:

Grealish - ESR - Buendia

ESR - Grealish - Buendia

Grealish - Buendia - ESR

tbh.....i think if those 3 did play, they could just start on paper in X/Y/Z position, but just end up roaming, interchanging and causing absolute mayhem.

Yep. Stick two in behind them, Watkins in front of them and just say to the three of them "go out and enjoy yourselves".

[KMitch]

2 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

Also, I really hate this trend on VT that anytime someone disagrees about a which position players would be better in or which players should start over others, it gets dismissed as "ahh, it's just cause he's better there on FIFA/FM", it just smacks of not being able to properly back up an argument, so it's easier to dismiss someone elses opinion as less valid.

Kinda like the trend of dismissing stats that disagree with your point of view, then posting your own numbers and simultaneously taking a swipe at them for not being able to back up their point of view?

[Thug]

10 minutes ago, RichiBoi11 said:

Then shouldn't your issue be with Dean Smith for playing him when he wasn't performing, rather than the player himself? I can appreciate he wasn't the best signing, but to belittle him to nothing more than set dressing is just needless and speaks more to you than to him. Mind you with your username it's hardly surprising 

Don’t know how to quote from another thread, but here’s what I wrote 21 Feb in the Barkley thread:  

 

I’ve been a harsh critic of him for several weeks now, but I agree words like hate are a bit strong.

At the end of the day, if he’s not picked, he wouldn’t play.

I love Dean Smith for turning this club around, and what he has achieved has been nothing short of remarkable. 

However, he’s clearly not without his flaws - and blind faith in ‘has-beens’ coming good is clearly one of them.

Yes, it’s clear that he shouldn’t be in the team - but the punishment for poor performances should be not being picked - not being hated.

I would LOVE for him to come good. Play superbly, fire us into Europe, and earn a permanent contract with us.

unfortunately, it’s just not in his DNA to work hard.  Which is not just something he’s doing at Villa - but rather a criticism that has followed him around throughout his career.

This is not Ross Barkley’s fault.  It’s poor ‘scouting’ and misguided persistence when it is obvious that the qualities that he lacks outweigh the qualities that he brings to the side.  We’re just the wrong fit for him.  And to be brutally honest, the role of the traditional no.10 is no longer a viable one at the elite level. 
It’s a shame it isn’t working out.  
 

But let’s face it, it’s not HIS fault he’s being picked to play.

 

 

[RichiBoi11]

7 minutes ago, Thug said:

Don’t know how to quote from another thread, but here’s what I wrote 21 Feb in the Barkley thread:  

 

 

I’ve been a harsh critic of him for several weeks now, but I agree words like hate are a bit strong.

At the end of the day, if he’s not picked, he wouldn’t play.

I love Dean Smith for turning this club around, and what he has achieved has been nothing short of remarkable. 

However, he’s clearly not without his flaws - and blind faith in ‘has-beens’ coming good is clearly one of them.

Yes, it’s clear that he shouldn’t be in the team - but the punishment for poor performances should be not being picked - not being hated.

I would LOVE for him to come good. Play superbly, fire us into Europe, and earn a permanent contract with us.

unfortunately, it’s just not in his DNA to work hard.  Which is not just something he’s doing at Villa - but rather a criticism that has followed him around throughout his career.

This is not Ross Barkley’s fault.  It’s poor ‘scouting’ and misguided persistence when it is obvious that the qualities that he lacks outweigh the qualities that he brings to the side.  We’re just the wrong fit for him.  And to be brutally honest, the role of the traditional no.10 is no longer a viable one at the elite level. 
It’s a shame it isn’t working out.  
 

But let’s face it, it’s not HIS fault he’s being picked to play.

 

 

In that case I rescind my cynicism lol. I'm just sick of seeing constant posts about him being a complete waste of space when that seems unjustified. As you said in your quoted post, it's not his fault he was picked.

Edited July 2, 2021 by RichiBoi11

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

27 minutes ago, KMitch said:

Kinda like the trend of dismissing stats that disagree with your point of view, then posting your own numbers and simultaneously taking a swipe at them for not being able to back up their point of view?

1. I didn't really give my opinion on where he should play (although I can see why it might appear I was advocating for him in the middle). Personally, I don't care where he plays, as long as it's for Villa, so I wasn't dismissing stats just because they disagreed with my point of view.

2. I was pointing out that top level stats like Goals and Assists are not particularly useful as they are not indicitive of performance and are far too reliant on how other players perform. The underlying metrics of stats like xG/90 and xA/90 as well as Key Passes and xGbuildup90/xGchain90 are much indicitive of performance as it focusses much more on the player as an individual without needing to really consider the players receiving passes or passing to them as much as pure G/A do. It's not perfect and still has it's problems (such as, does Grealish's xG drop in the middle because he's worse at scoring there, or is it because the chance creators that play when he's on the left are better than those that play when he's in the middle?) but it's a much better way of judging performance than just looking at goals and assists, hence why professional clubs focus on stuff like xG and xA more. I think there was even an interview with Grealish recently discussing his performance this year where he mentioned he was doing better in terms of xA and chances created, and that had been a big focus with the coaching staff.

3. I see the FIFA/FM line a lot on here, much more than anyone criticising that point, and the fact you ignored most of my post to pick up on that one line feels to me like it backs up my point. I wasn't doing it to just dismiss your post and take a swipe, hence why it was a final tacked on point at the end of the post, but just because I think it's a dumb argument that allows people to dismiss points without engaging with them.

[Jbvilla909]

Problem with an attack of Jack, Emi and ESR is lack pace, unless ESR and EMI are quicker that I think, or, would we rely on Cash and Targett for that ? 

[sidcow]

8 minutes ago, Jbvilla909 said:

Problem with an attack of Jack, Emi and ESR is lack pace, unless ESR and EMI are quicker that I think, or, would we rely on Cash and Targett for that ? 

Well Jack is clearly quicker than you think.

[gwi1890]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

Carew was a swap for Baros, and in no way was seen as our biggest signing since Collymore. Ashley Young was 9.5 million, then Milner was 12.5m and so was Downing at 12.5m. All of them bigger signings than Carew.

Bigger money possibly but Carew was a bigger name

[Dave-R]

What's his record 7 assists 4 goals in 33?

I can understand why Arsenal want to keep him, because he's been there so long that if they lost him it'd be abit disastrous that they couldn't keep one of there own.

I'm not sure us keep flexing our length and pointing it there way is smart. Really if we didn't succeed first and second and we go in a third and fail, it just starts to look absolutely nuts doesn't it and we should give up and go else where. Everytime we fail we get or have to include a price increase and now it looks like a third will see an increase to 35 or 40 million. We must have a decent transfer budget to go on the flex like this and it should be sending the message that Villa is minted and money is no problem.

I'm sure we can well and truly find someone of equal or better ability or quality that ESR for less the price now, hopefully we are exploring other options now.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Dave-R

[Awol]

58 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

What's his record 7 assists 4 goals in 33?

I can understand why Arsenal want to keep him, because he's been there so long that if they lost him it'd be abit disastrous that they couldn't keep one of there own.

I'm not sure us keep flexing our length and pointing it there way is smart. Really if we didn't succeed first and second and we go in a third and fail, it just starts to look absolutely nuts doesn't it and we should give up and go else where. Everytime we fail we get or have to include a price increase and now it looks like a third will see an increase to 35 or 40 million. We must have a decent transfer budget to go on the flex like this and it should be sending the message that Villa is minted and money is no problem.

I'm sure we can well and truly find someone of equal or better ability or quality that ESR for less the price now, hopefully we are exploring other options now.

 

To a point, but it seems from the outside like:

1) Arsenal lack the funds they need to rebuild - see Everton now involved for White b/c Arse are struggling to structure payments

2) Villa are being encouraged to bid - that’s why they went back

3) Arse haven’t put a number on it, hence the low bids with incremental increases to make sure we don’t offer more than they’d accept. 

[maqroll]

2 hours ago, RichiBoi11 said:

either way, aren't these nice problems to have.

And a great problem for Watkins who stands to bang in 30 goals under this scenario. 

[MotoMkali]

5 hours ago, Villan_of_oz said:

When thinking about this possible signing, I can think that means we're setting up 4231 and the 3 will Grealish-ESR-Buendia, I can live that.

I think it means we will rest 1 every game. Especially Jack if his shin injury is more concerning than we initially thought. Remember there is 114 league games for the 3 in behind the striker. 25 for ESR, 30 got Jack and Buendia, 20 for Traore and 15 or so for El ghazi seems plausible. Without taking into account sub appearances or whatnot. 

Not even accounting for long term injuries either. Not even that unlikely give both Jack and ESR don't exactly have the best track record in that department.

Id also imagine we'd like a cup run so I imagine 40 appearances for the 5 behind Watkins when factoring in substitute appearances is quite likely. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by MotoMkali

[MotoMkali]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

To a point, but it seems from the outside like:

1) Arsenal lack the funds they need to rebuild - see Everton now involved for White b/c Arse are struggling to structure payments

2) Villa are being encouraged to bid - that’s why they went back

3) Arse haven’t put a number on it, hence the low bids with incremental increases to make sure we don’t offer more than they’d accept. 

Like a tier 2 or 3 guy at arsenal (so not super reliable but probably knows enough about the situation given how leaky they are) said that they want a little bit over twice our initial bid or at least that's how much they value him at. I'd imagine they would sell for less than that though if he doesn't sign a new deal soon. Like in the region of 40-45 mil instead of 50-55

[nick76]

18 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Like a tier 2 or 3 guy at arsenal (so not super reliable but probably knows enough about the situation given how leaky they are) said that they want a little bit over twice our initial bid or at least that's how much they value him at. I'd imagine they would sell for less than that though if he doesn't sign a new deal soon. Like in the region of 40-45 mil instead of 50-55

and we’re seeing if they blink before that with our small increases and hopefully get him for 35m ish knowing we’ll pay more if we need to.

[Awol]

30 minutes ago, nick76 said:

and we’re seeing if they blink before that with our small increases and hopefully get him for 35m ish knowing we’ll pay more if we need to.

I reckon 35 might be the magic number

Edit: + add ons 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Awol

[beachboys1]

want him at villa but think we wil be waiting all window and end up with what we got