Transgenderism

[Anthony]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

Sorry to quote myself but this has a fair bit of a focus on Rowling and gives some critique on her 'concerns'.

There's also this breakdown of her essay that points out every bit where she's wrong, or parroting transphobic talking points, or...

Then we come to her writing a book which is riddled with the same shit, without balance...

But the big problem with her isn't so much that she has these views, it's that her status and money means she can force those views into the debate and direct the discussion to her liking.

She may make some great points, she may make some terrible points, but I found it unwatchable, and after a few minutes my opinion hadn't changed. This is not due to the accuracy/inaccuracy of her points, rather the format and her delivery style, in fact, the style of the whole thing. I wouldn't watch a documentary narrated by the cast of Clueless and I'm not going to watch this.

So, is there a non video version with bullet points and links to supporting evidence? I ask, because I would like to educate myself. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Anthony
Clarity

[Rodders]

Free speech row prof Kathleen Stock: Protests like anxiety dream - BBC News

This is an example of the problem. Insane she was abused, insane she had to quit. This is the mindset the twittertrolls have manufactured. Simply for holding this position. So, **** them to be honest. **** this level of pathetic militancy. 

 

Quote

 

A university professor accused of transphobia for her views on gender identity has said protests against her were like a "terrible anxiety dream".

In a BBC interview, Kathleen Stock, who rejects the claim, said she quit her University of Sussex post following "reputation trashing from colleagues".

She said it had been surreal to see her name "plastered over every wall" on student protest posters.

The university said it unequivocally defended her right to free speech.

Vice-chancellor Professor Adam Tickell told staff in an email he had hoped Prof Stock would have felt able to return to work, and she would have been supported.

But the philosophy professor told BBC's Woman's Hour the campaign against her was the "end point" of years of negative treatment by colleagues that had become "exhausting".

Prof Stock, who recently published a book questioning the idea that gender identity is more "socially significant" than biological sex, said her views had been "radically misrepresented" to suggest she was bigoted or transphobic, something she categorically denies.

But an online statement accompanying the campaign against her suggested Prof Stock "has spent years campaigning for the exclusion of trans people from 'women's only spaces' and against trans and non-binary people's right to self-identify as any gender".

It also criticised her trusteeship of the LGB Alliance, which describes itself on Twitter as promoting "the rights of lesbians, bisexuals & gay men, as recognised by biological sex". The group is described by trans activists as transphobic, which it denies.

'Medieval experience'

In the interview aired on Wednesday, Prof Stock said: "In almost every university... there are a small group of people who are absolutely opposed to the sorts of things I say and instead of getting involved in arguing with me using reason, evidence - the traditional university methods - they tell their students in lectures that I pose a harm to trans students.

"They go on Twitter to say that I'm a bigot so thus creating an atmosphere in which students become much more extreme and much more empowered to do what they did, I guess."

In October, posters were put up near the university campus and an accompanying social media campaign claimed Prof Stock "makes trans students unsafe". Photos also showed a masked protester standing on the university's sign with a banner reading "Stock out".

Prof Stock told Woman's Hour presenter Emma Barnett the effect of the protests was "head spinning" and "like some sort of surreal terrible anxiety dream to see your name plastered over every wall".

She described a protest at an open day when about 100 students were holding placards saying "Stock out", ''Fire her", with flares being set off.

"I don't know if I can explain it but you have to imagine yourself at your workplace… all eyes are on you, all fingers seem to be pointing at you, it's like a medieval experience," she said.

"At that point I wasn't scared so much as incredibly distressed."

The professor said she had received hundreds of letters of support and accused her critics of being "out of step" with the public.

Harassment 'deplorable'

The "tipping point" that led to her resignation, she said, was when the Sussex branch of the University and College Union (UCU) released a statement which "basically backed the protesters and implicitly made it obvious that they thought I was transphobic and accused Sussex University of institutional transphobia".

She had previously tweeted a screenshot of a message purportedly sent to all Sussex UCU members which didn't name her personally but urged university management to "take a clear and strong stance against transphobia at Sussex", including an "urgent investigation".

The national branch of the UCU released a follow-up statement saying it was a "proud and unequivocal supporter of trans rights", opposed harassment and bullying and was "not calling for any staff to be dismissed from their post".

The University of Sussex said it had publicly and internally fully supported Prof Stock's freedom of speech and would not tolerate the bullying and harassment of anyone in its community.

Equalities minister Liz Truss and chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) Baroness Kishwer Falkner both criticised the attacks on Prof Stock.

Higher and further education minister Michelle Donelan said the campaign of harassment against her was "deplorable" and the situation should never have got that far.

 

 

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

Personally, I wouldn't want one of my University lecturers to be a trustee of a hate group, especially if I was a member of the group being targeted. (Fun fact - LGB Alliance support Conversion Therapy, an interesting way of standing up to homophobia, it's like an anti-Racist group supporting segregation)

Here's a good summary of why what Prof. Stock did/said is so bad. (It's long, but you can probably skip the first half as that's mainly discussing the difference between Freedom of Speech and Academic Freedom and highlighting how Prof. Stock's Academic Freedom has in no way been infringed)

Quote

The UK Media Has Seriously Bungled the Kathleen Stock Story

For the last two weeks, Sussex University (my alma mater) has been rocked by crisis. A clear picture emerges from reporting on Sussex in the Guardian, the Times, the Daily Mail, and on the BBC. It goes as follows: Prof. Kathleen Stock, a respected “gender critical” feminist philosopher, has been forced out of her academic job by bomb-lobbing masked students, who are offended by the strong critical stances she has taken on the conflicts between trans rights and women’s rights. Despite the ubiquity of this version of events in UK media, every one of its claims is demonstrably incorrect at the level of fact. By repeating this story until it has been widely believed, the UK media has amplified some of the most extreme and frightening positions within the contemporary debate over civil rights for trans people.

Also, Sex isn't binary. There has been a lot of scientific studies in to it by actual genetecists rather than philosophy professors.

Quote

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia
Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary

Antiscientific sentiment bombards our politics, or so says the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW). Chief among these antiscientific sentiments, the IDW cites the rising visibility of transgender civil rights demands. To the IDW, trans people and their advocates are destroying the pillars of our society with such free-speech–suppressing, postmodern concepts as: “trans women are women,” “gender-neutral pronouns,” or “there are more than two genders.” Asserting “basic biology” will not be ignored, the IDW proclaims. “Facts don’t care about your feelings.”

The irony in all this is that these “protectors of enlightenment” are guilty of the very behavior this phrase derides. Though often dismissed as just a fringe internet movement, they espouse unscientific claims that have infected our politics and culture. Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.

Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”

And I highly recommend watching Mhairi Black's Parliament speech from the beginning of Pride month, in which she highlights that much of the arguments against the Trans community are an intentional rehash of 70s/80s homophobia by the Far Right to push their culture war nonsense because Gay people are too accepted now, so they should move the wedge issue to Trans people.

 

Edit - I always forget about the bloody rule about link extracts! Hope the ones added are ok mods.

Edited November 3, 2021 by MessiWillSignForVilla

[Chindie]

The ever great Shaun does a bloody good rebuttal of the Beeb's recent grim article on the 'threat' of transgender people to lesbians. Which cited a lesbian who has herself been accused of, and admitted to, sexually assaulting women.

That 'article' only becomes more appalling as time goes by.

[maqroll]

The pronouns thing is annoying, if I'm honest. If someone wants to be referred to as THEY, and they are among a group of people...how do you differentiate them? Also, THEY sounds very cold. As if they aren't in the room. For non-binary people, is it that debilitating to have to pick a gender label? Like, pick the gender you use when in a public toilet and worry about actual equality matters. This reconfiguration of basic language structure to accommodate 0 5% of the population seems over baked. Mind you, I'm otherwise sensitive to and fully supportive of equal rights for all.

[desensitized43]

30 minutes ago, maqroll said:

The pronouns thing is annoying, if I'm honest. If someone wants to be referred to as THEY, and they are among a group of people...how do you differentiate them? Also, THEY sounds very cold. As if they aren't in the room. For non-binary people, is it that debilitating to have to pick a gender label? Like, pick the gender you use when in a public toilet and worry about actual equality matters. This reconfiguration of basic language structure to accommodate 0 5% of the population seems over baked. Mind you, I'm otherwise sensitive to and fully supportive of equal rights for all.

The pronoun thing doesn’t really irritate me at all. With all of this (as with a lot of things in life) I’d always asked myself “is it hurting anyone” by calling someone “they” rather than he/she.

Most of the non-militant trans crowd will be fine with an accidental slip into he/she pronoun as they’ll understand it’s something that’s a recent development in their movement.

The whole bathroom thing I can see why people (mainly women) have a problem with that. It makes some uncomfortable for their safety and for that reason someone is being hurt by it. Still, I’m yet to read about an example of a man identifying as a woman to perv in the bathroom.

[bickster]

32 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

The whole bathroom thing I can see why people (mainly women) have a problem with that. It makes some uncomfortable for their safety and for that reason someone is being hurt by it. Still, I’m yet to read about an example of a man identifying as a woman to perv in the bathroom.

Mooney Karen White and its not an isolated incident in UK Prisons

[chrisp65]

The bathroom thing, it’s actually an old fashioned mindset thing. No need for male and female toilets with some decent design.

We don’t appear to need male and female disabled toilets.

 

[mjmooney]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

The bathroom thing, it’s actually an old fashioned mindset thing. No need for male and female toilets with some decent design.

We don’t appear to need male and female disabled toilets.

 

But disabled toilets are invariably of the 'one occupant at a time' design. 

[chrisp65]

28 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

But disabled toilets are invariably of the 'one occupant at a time' design. 

As are all the facilities in the two new comprehensive schools in my town, the office I use in Kidderminster, and my Client’s HQ building in London.

 

[Wainy316]

My view on unisex toilets soured recently when I wanted to have a simple slash and had to join a queue of about ten women.  No thanks

Edited November 12, 2021 by Wainy316

[TreeVillan]

11 hours ago, Wainy316 said:

My view on unisex toilets soured recently when I wanted to have a simple slash and had to join a queue of about ten women.  No thanks

Women use toilets as some sort of social gathering event, god knows why. 

[bickster]

Female toilets are always the worst to clean, its not just social gathering that goes on in there, there's other weird stuff that goes on in there, it;s like an Area 51 of the human species

[chrisp65]

I listened to this yesterday, whilst driving somewhere or other.

It’s a bit long, and it’s a little bit dry (KW) and it does get to a point where wording is really drilled down in to but not really completely resolved.

For me, it showed just how tricky language is.

BBC R4 Woman’s Hour

[Rodders]

On 03/11/2021 at 19:36, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

Personally, I wouldn't want one of my University lecturers to be a trustee of a hate group, especially if I was a member of the group being targeted. (Fun fact - LGB Alliance support Conversion Therapy, an interesting way of standing up to homophobia, it's like an anti-Racist group supporting segregation)

Here's a good summary of why what Prof. Stock did/said is so bad. (It's long, but you can probably skip the first half as that's mainly discussing the difference between Freedom of Speech and Academic Freedom and highlighting how Prof. Stock's Academic Freedom has in no way been infringed)

 

Much appreciated the first link there, reading it now. It appears I've been guilty of a gross misreading / representation of the situation. 

[Eidolon]

Woopwoop! Got my legal name change approved today and an appointment set to get it confirmed

 

pretty stoked about it and this seemed to be the appropriate thread. 

[HanoiVillan]

7 minutes ago, Eidolon said:

Woopwoop! Got my legal name change approved today and an appointment set to get it confirmed

 

pretty stoked about it and this seemed to be the appropriate thread. 

Congratulations!

[Stevo985]

On 12/11/2021 at 17:40, maqroll said:

For non-binary people, is it that debilitating to have to pick a gender label?

That's probably up to them really isn't it

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, Eidolon said:

Woopwoop! Got my legal name change approved today and an appointment set to get it confirmed

 

pretty stoked about it and this seemed to be the appropriate thread. 

Congrats!

[Rugeley Villa]

7 hours ago, Eidolon said:

Woopwoop! Got my legal name change approved today and an appointment set to get it confirmed

 

pretty stoked about it and this seemed to be the appropriate thread. 

Congrats 

If you don’t mind me being nosy , what do you mean? You’ve changed your name to another female name or a more male orientated name.