Transgenderism

[tomav84]

34 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Going rather off topic, but did anyone watch that Ellie Simmons documentary on dwarfism last night? She was arguing against drugs which are being trialled to potentially eliminate it. She feels that the emphasis should be on teaching more acceptance of difference. Very interesting programme. 

could they not do both? would it any different to making drugs to eliminate downs syndrome or cerebral palsy?

obviously it's impossible for me to really empathise with her, but that's a weird take on it personally. but then i didn't watch it so know nothing about it aside from the brief synopsis of the poster above

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Yep, I watched that and yes it was a very interesting point.

Quite compelling that you can be a tv personality, clearly intelligent and articulate, have a good family life and be a sporting success, whilst others are investing in medical programmes to eliminate people like you.

"Eliminate people like you" makes it sound quite sinister. I haven't watched the program but if we are talking about parents wanting the option to have kids who are tall I could see why that would be popular.  

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

"Eliminate people like you" makes it sound quite sinister. I haven't watched the program but if we are talking about parents wanting the option to have kids who are tall I could see why that would be popular.  

Well, if someone can live a full life, but parents want medical interventions to change them, I can see how that could be sinister to someone that already has that condition, yes.

If it’s proven white people get better jobs, should black babies be lightened with medication?

[LondonLax]

29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, if someone can live a full life, but parents want medical interventions to change them, I can see how that could be sinister to someone that already has that condition, yes.

If it’s proven white people get better jobs, should black babies be lightened with medication?

I really don’t see why not. The parents are not threatening to change the person in question, only their own child. 

[chrisp65]

28 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I really don’t see why not. The parents are not threatening to change the person in question, only their own child. 

 

I would suspect from that response, that there is a good chance you’re an able bodied, relatively average, white male?

That would describe me, and I’m not sure I’d be the best placed person to decide what others not like me would find threatening.

[LondonLax]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I would suspect from that response, that there is a good chance you’re an able bodied, relatively average, white male?

That would describe me, and I’m not sure I’d be the best placed person to decide what others not like me would find threatening.

I certainly would not try and decide how others feel, or even how I think they should feel about it. 

[Eidolon]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Why cant they just do a transgender sports then everyone wins?

Good point segregation is always the answer

[Ingram85]

1 minute ago, Eidolon said:

Good point segregation is always the answer

BoJo agrees with segregation if his quote today is anything to go by. Fat old word soggy removed that he is. 

[fruitvilla]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

If it’s proven white people get better jobs, should black babies be lightened with medication?

If it's proven people without cleft palates have better outcomes, should children/people with cleft palates have them fixed?

The problem with both of these sentences is the word "should".

[fruitvilla]

9 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, I think I’m more lost than before on this argument. Now its not being based on absolute science? Incidentally, I fundamentally disagree with the idea of current scientific knowledge as an absolute. Scientific fact changes as it encounters new evidence.

I agree science does slowly sort out the wheat from the chaff. I disagree with og1874's science bit, but I agree with his take on polysomy. 

The issue is: the majority of people, their genders line up nicely with the xx, xy binary. Those with the variety of polysomy types tend to have bigger problems than what gender pronoun to choose. Now overlain on the xx, xy binary, there is a whole bunch chemistries resulting likely from genetics and environmental factors that result in genders not lining up nicely with the biological sex binary. What do we do about it? Is there anything we can do about it?

For example, if we find certain males are sensitive to estrogen mimics and this is a cause of our gender preferences does it make sense to remove those mimics from the environment of males susceptible to the mimics? Answers on a back of a postcard please.

As to science shifting ... so does morality. Personally I rely science and outcomes, but whatever.

Edited April 6, 2022 by fruitvilla

[foreveryoung]

[Demitri_C]

3 hours ago, Eidolon said:

Good point segregation is always the answer

Its not segrating its offering a potential solution. Did women feel they were segrated when womens sports were introduced for the same sport? Have you asked a transgender if they feel this segrates them or just speculating? 

Its either you keep it as it is and (if its proven transgenders have an unfair advantage on females who were females at birth) or you come up with a solution.

What do you propose as a solution??

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Demitri_C

[Davkaus]

I thought I had an opinion on the sport issue, but I seem to agree with the rumpled scarecrow who calls himself prime minister, so I'll reconsider.

[bickster]

42 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Have you asked a transgender if they feel this segrates them or just speculating? 

Without wishing to speak for Eidolon, she is transgender

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Without wishing to speak for Eidolon, she is transgender

Oh ok i didnt know.

But i think unless a debate about a subject of this of having a transgender sports we wont really know. Some might be in favor of it others might not. Unless the debate it had we can't really day ehat the reaction will be

[LondonLax]

12 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Oh ok i didnt know.

But i think unless a debate about a subject of this of having a transgender sports we wont really know. Some might be in favor of it others might not. Unless the debate it had we can't really day ehat the reaction will be

I get the feeling that such an event would have a very small group of competitors and probably a very small and niche audience as well. In all likelihood it would probably struggle to keep going. At the same time trans athletes would be locked out of ever competing at any big high profile events. So that doesn’t seem like a great result.

[Demitri_C]

3 hours ago, LondonLax said:

I get the feeling that such an event would have a very small group of competitors and probably a very small and niche audience as well. In all likelihood it would probably struggle to keep going. At the same time trans athletes would be locked out of ever competing at any big high profile events. So that doesn’t seem like a great result.

Possibly but as the world grows the more transgenders there will be. I guess all comes down to numbers of atheletes. Obviously if you only have three competitors in the sport than thats unworkable.

Guess the discussion/debate would have to be made 1st before we even got to that stage.

[ciggiesnbeer]

Politicians should imho defer these sporting issues to the relevant sporting bodies and athletes organizations. 

More compassion all around is needed. More compassion for transgender folks and in addition I think transgender athletes should be more compassionate to competing athletes who do not have their physical advantages. 

Edit: I watched Boris Johnsons interview. God help me, I generally agree with him ffs. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by ciggiesnbeer

[Davkaus]

14 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

as the world grows the more transgenders there will be.

[Chindie]

Sports are a red herring in this debate. It's up to the individual sports themselves to decide what they want to do for the good of sporting competition in their particular niche. My personal view, whilst being fully onboard with rights for the trans community, is that the benefits of male puberty are such that trans athletes probably won't be able to compete in their preferred gender at elite/pro levels, and particularly not in contact sports.

Away from sports, just let trans people get on with their lives as they see fit.