Transgenderism

[colhint]

One of the problems is that we as a state have to allow for the extremes of society. Wherever there is a rule someone will push it to the next level. Guys who have committed rape trying to get into female prisons. I know it won't be the norm, but you could imagine pervs getting off just by sitting on the lav having a  J Arthur just sitting in a cubicle. Or even upskirting.  Then there is the whole thing going on in female toilets especially at clubs. Girls with tit tape that needs readjusting and her mates help out. 

I have no doubt the vast majority of people are fine but we always have to allow for the few.

[bannedfromHandV]

Every time I think I have an opinion on the wider debate I have to stop and remind myself that I’m neither trans or a woman, and I’m not sure if anything I think or feel is even relevant at that point.

I understand some men would prefer to live as trans-women, I understand some women are keen to protect the sanctity of womanhood. Where you go from there I’m really not entirely sure any longer.

[lapal_fan]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Every time I think I have an opinion on the wider debate I have to stop and remind myself that I’m neither trans or a woman, and I’m not sure if anything I think or feel is even relevant at that point.

I understand some men would prefer to live as trans-women, I understand some women are keen to protect the sanctity of womanhood. Where you go from there I’m really not entirely sure any longer.

Nothing on this forum so far helps, either.

We're missing one of the key demographics almost entirely, and have an extremely tiny number of the other (although I've not seen Eiolodon (sp) for ages, either!)

Anything else is just noise.

 

[tomav84]

8 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Nothing on this forum so far helps, either.

We're missing one of the key demographics almost entirely, and have an extremely tiny number of the other (although I've not seen Eiolodon (sp) for ages, either!)

Anything else is just noise.

 

i don't think there's any harm in discussing it. it helps to bring our own experiences to the table. whilst we're not in the demographics ourselves, we might have met some that are. many of us have wives/partners whom we could ask their viewpoints on particularly around the changing room/toilet topic which IMO is one of the most difficult to resolve.

as i type, i asked my mrs that question. she's fine with trans women using female facilities. they're women as far as she's concerned. it's straight, cis gender men that are their biggest fear. her view is that women that tend to have the issue with it are typically transphobes that hide their prejudices behind the line of feeling threatened.

[lapal_fan]

40 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i don't think there's any harm in discussing it. it helps to bring our own experiences to the table. whilst we're not in the demographics ourselves, we might have met some that are. many of us have wives/partners whom we could ask their viewpoints on particularly around the changing room/toilet topic which IMO is one of the most difficult to resolve.

as i type, i asked my mrs that question. she's fine with trans women using female facilities. they're women as far as she's concerned. it's straight, cis gender men that are their biggest fear. her view is that women that tend to have the issue with it are typically transphobes that hide their prejudices behind the line of feeling threatened.

The problem with what I see here is (and goes for a lot of male dominated circles) is men by nature are usually "problem fixers".  We see issues and come up with solutions.  

Your wife may feel like that, but I know my wife probably wouldn't, and she's not what I'd call transphobic.  

I can see why women have issues with the situations mentioned.  It's in almost living memory women didn't have voting rights, women couldn't have a credit card until the 70s/80s.

So I understand why some women want "born women" only spaces.  

Again, trans rights are only really developing and we all want what's best for everyone.

There are good and bad in all circles and when you're talking about very small communities of people it's very difficult to have an opinion that's not going to upset a large portion of that small community, on either side of the fence you sit on.

For what it's worth (largely nothing and absolutely anecdotal), I've worked with born men, now females who some do and some don't like going into female spaces, I thought that was peculiar, although on reflection, why would it be peculiar?

It's an infinitely difficult discussion, like the gender version of Israel and Palestine.

Edited April 2 by lapal_fan

[icouldtelltheworld]

16 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

Well people who are in prison are generally there because they aren't standup members of society so it shouldn't really be a surprise that when you put scummy people in jail they're going to do scummy things if the opportunity presents.

The overwhelming majority of female prisoners are previous victims of various forms of physical, emotional and sexual abuse at the hands of exploitative men. If we hope to reintegrate them into society the bare minimum is really to avoid revictimising them whilst incarcerated.

Settings like prisons and rape centres that house some of the most vulnerable and socially excluded woman are where the rights conflict comes in. As others has said, the bathroom.issue is largely a loud side drama

[VILLAMARV]

17 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

This is one of the reasons why gender self-identification is unlikely to become commonplace, in my opinion at least - there are plenty of trans advocates who think it literally should be as easy as saying "I identify as <x>" but I think there's too many issues in practice.

I've had a variation of this chat with some friends of mine who were asserting that "gender shouldn't be self determined". I argued that surely gender can only be self determined - but that we agreed if what they really meant was that the Law should not be self affirming though. Despite accusations of engaging in a semantic argument, I think there's a massive difference. Their suggestion that gender can be determined externally is rather silly to my mind. How people identify and what the Law should do about that are very different questions that are unlikely to be answered with a simple catch-all statement.

 

[LondonLax]

6 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I've had a variation of this chat with some friends of mine who were asserting that "gender shouldn't be self determined". I argued that surely gender can only be self determined - but that we agreed if what they really meant was that the Law should not be self affirming though. Despite accusations of engaging in a semantic argument, I think there's a massive difference. Their suggestion that gender can be determined externally is rather silly to my mind. How people identify and what the Law should do about that are very different questions that are unlikely to be answered with a simple catch-all statement.

 

Well how a person describes themselves is entirely up to themselves of course.

Surely the only discussion to be had though is around how the rest of society should regard a person, both regarding the law as well as social norms?

[Panto_Villan]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

I've had a variation of this chat with some friends of mine who were asserting that "gender shouldn't be self determined". I argued that surely gender can only be self determined - but that we agreed if what they really meant was that the Law should not be self affirming though. Despite accusations of engaging in a semantic argument, I think there's a massive difference. Their suggestion that gender can be determined externally is rather silly to my mind. How people identify and what the Law should do about that are very different questions that are unlikely to be answered with a simple catch-all statement.

That's getting quite philosophical, but sure, I think that's probably true now the concepts of gender and assigned sex have been separated - indeed, I imagine that's why they were separated. I think it's wholly reasonable that external society can assign you a biological sex via a medical professional, but you can believe yourself to be whatever gender you want (nobody could stop you even if they wanted to).

When I refer to gender self-ID I am indeed largely referring to it legally. But I guess I'd add that that there's a much larger grey area between a person's internal determination of their gender and the gender-related legal structure of the country in which they live, which is the social norms of that country.

There's no particularly easy answer about how far the rest of society should be expected to go to accomodate your beliefs. I imagine most people in this thread would be happy to accomodate genuinely-held beliefs individuals might have about their gender, provided it wasn't hurting anyone - but I also imagine most people wouldn't be interested in indulging someone who was doing it for the bantz. But filtering out the latter group does require external judgement to be part of the process too.