Transgenderism

[og1874]

10 minutes ago, limpid said:

Without examples though, it's just a strawman.

I can’t give you examples from my life experience unfortunately. Perhaps ask the question why I would have any opinion on the matter if it was not something I had experienced in order to form an opinion on it?

 

*edit*
 

or see above in this very thread where someone told me that I was wrong about chromosomes defining biological sex, perhaps? 

Edited April 5, 2022 by og1874

[chrisp65]

I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone argue they are a different physical biological sex than what they appear to be.

I do know a couple of people that identify as a different gender to their assigned sex. I’ve known a couple of ‘girls’ that have, since being toddlers, identified as boys. I’d be fairly confident that as 5 year olds and 10 year olds and 15 year olds they were not taking a political or contrarian stance in insisting they were boys.

I’m not absolutely clear on what the argument is that some people are fighting against.

[StefanAVFC]

1 hour ago, og1874 said:

The whole transgender thing genuinely flummoxes me. Not in the typical "that's wrong/against nature" nonsense way, but more that it's almost being used to rewrite actual science and biology, and that bugs me.

Everyone, absolutely every single person on this planet, has the right to dress how they want, act how they want, sleep with who they want, and identify with whatever gender or otherwise that makes them comfortable (once it's not harming anyone else - and being offended isn't being harmed). I believe and support that 100%, and will fight for the rights of everyone to be able to be comfortable with who they are within society.

But...

A female does not become male by taking hormone pills or having an operation. They take on the external appearance of a male, and if that's what they want then that's great, I'm genuinely very happy for them. But they're not biologically male, and never will be. It's not possible. That doesn't make them any less of a person, nor should it make them feel bad. You just can't fcuking change your chromosomes, whether you feel nature screwed up during your gestation or not.

It's no business of anyone's whether someone is trans or not. But when you start turning actual science* into make believe, I've got a problem with it.

(*actual science being that you either have YY or XY chromosomes and you cannot change that at a genetic level)

What about hermaphrodites?

[icouldtelltheworld]

1 hour ago, limpid said:

Without examples though, it's just a strawman.

You really don't have to look far to find a significant number of people claiming that biological sex itself is a social construct (a quick Google brings up several articles in fairly renowned publications). It's utter nonsense and massively undermines the campaign for trans rights.

[chrisp65]

Scientifically, there are more than the two options, xx or xy.

So when people use the science of chromosomes to state categorically that there are two options, ignoring the 1% of the population that have some other intersex combination, they are a bit wrong.

Now, you might want to argue that someone 6’4” tall with a deep voice and a cock and balls shouldn’t be allowed to win ladies swimming competitions. But arguing there is a ‘straight’ choice between xx or xy is just plain wrong. Scientifically.

[og1874]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

What about hermaphrodites?

They’re still either XX or XY, depending on the type of hermaphroditism 

[og1874]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Scientifically, there are more than the two options, xx or xy.

So when people use the science of chromosomes to state categorically that there are two options, ignoring the 1% of the population that have some other intersex combination, they are a bit wrong.

As above, hermaphroditism/intersex is still XX or XY by my understanding, and then there are a very, very small percentage of XO, XXX and XXY.

Edited April 6, 2022 by og1874

[og1874]

1 hour ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

You really don't have to look far to find a significant number of people claiming that biological sex itself is a social construct (a quick Google brings up several articles in fairly renowned publications). It's utter nonsense and massively undermines the campaign for trans rights.

100% this. It does so much damage that could so easily be avoided 

[fruitvilla]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Scientifically, there are more than the two options, xx or xy.

While true, the people who fall outside of this binary have my sympathies, but generally this binary is irrelevant to how people select their gender. 

[fruitvilla]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

What about hermaphrodites?

According to wikipedia

There are no hermaphroditic species among mammals^[18][19] or birds.^[20][21] According to David B. Rivers there is controversy around hermaphroditism in insects with some experts believing it does not occur.^[22] Hermaphroditism is said to occur in one or two insect species.^[23]

But if you can provide some more data for your question?

[Stevo985]

6 hours ago, og1874 said:

The whole transgender thing genuinely flummoxes me. Not in the typical "that's wrong/against nature" nonsense way, but more that it's almost being used to rewrite actual science and biology, and that bugs me.

Everyone, absolutely every single person on this planet, has the right to dress how they want, act how they want, sleep with who they want, and identify with whatever gender or otherwise that makes them comfortable (once it's not harming anyone else - and being offended isn't being harmed). I believe and support that 100%, and will fight for the rights of everyone to be able to be comfortable with who they are within society.

But...

A female does not become male by taking hormone pills or having an operation. They take on the external appearance of a male, and if that's what they want then that's great, I'm genuinely very happy for them. But they're not biologically male, and never will be. It's not possible. That doesn't make them any less of a person, nor should it make them feel bad. You just can't fcuking change your chromosomes, whether you feel nature screwed up during your gestation or not.

It's no business of anyone's whether someone is trans or not. But when you start turning actual science* into make believe, I've got a problem with it.

(*actual science being that you either have YY or XY chromosomes and you cannot change that at a genetic level)

You're taking about sex, not gender

[Eidolon]

4 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Scientifically, there are more than the two options, xx or xy.

So when people use the science of chromosomes to state categorically that there are two options, ignoring the 1% of the population that have some other intersex combination, they are a bit wrong.

Now, you might want to argue that someone 6’4” tall with a deep voice and a cock and balls shouldn’t be allowed to win ladies swimming competitions. But arguing there is a ‘straight’ choice between xx or xy is just plain wrong. Scientifically.

I’m pretty much trying to keep my head out of discourse (I do enough of that on twitter) but the whole Leah Thomas thing is a massive beat up full of misinformation and straight up lies. I myself was a former Australian state swimmer with a few medals at junior level and I can promise you female HRT RUINS your athletic base, she won one race out of 5 (her pet event) miles off of Ledeki’s record at the NCAA meet coming stone last in one and middling the others, doesn’t seem like a sport destroying advantage to me really…what womens sport needs to worry about are transmasc athletes with male T levels (who ARE essentially men ‘biologically’) being forced to compete in female events and ACTUALLy slaughtering them every time. It’s happening a lot in actual non pro wrestling there at the moment…but that doesn’t serve the agenda 

[TheAuthority]

A question for you @Eidolon - I am an instrumental music teacher so I see my students one on one, or in small chamber ensembles. My point is I don't just see my students in a lecture hall of 200.

I am pretty sure one on my students is struggling with their gender identity.

Any advice on how to be supportive/helpful. They haven't shared anything with me but there have been a lot of lessons ending in tears (maybe 75% of lessons starting last September) and it's obvious there's a lot of emotional turmoil going on which is not just music related.

[chrisp65]

6 hours ago, og1874 said:

As above, hermaphroditism/intersex is still XX or XY by my understanding, and then there are a very, very small percentage of XO, XXX and XXY.

 

4 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

While true, the people who fall outside of this binary have my sympathies, but generally this binary is irrelevant to how people select their gender. 

 

Well, I think I’m more lost than before on this argument. Now its not being based on absolute science? Incidentally, I fundamentally disagree with the idea of current scientific knowledge as an absolute. Scientific fact changes as it encounters new evidence.

If someone ‘feels’ like they are not easily pigeonholed, the argument is ‘science’. But then if the science throws up multiple options, it’s ‘not just science’.

Genuinely trying to get to the crux of the argument, because you see it played out on twitter or wherever, sides have already been taken depending on cultural background, and I’m not seeing any real substance to an argument.

What is the basic problem for people who believe a man can’t be born in a woman’s body?

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, Eidolon said:

I’m pretty much trying to keep my head out of discourse (I do enough of that on twitter) but the whole Leah Thomas thing is a massive beat up full of misinformation and straight up lies. I myself was a former Australian state swimmer with a few medals at junior level and I can promise you female HRT RUINS your athletic base, she won one race out of 5 (her pet event) miles off of Ledeki’s record at the NCAA meet coming stone last in one and middling the others, doesn’t seem like a sport destroying advantage to me really…what womens sport needs to worry about are transmasc athletes with male T levels (who ARE essentially men ‘biologically’) being forced to compete in female events and ACTUALLy slaughtering them every time. It’s happening a lot in actual non pro wrestling there at the moment…but that doesn’t serve the agenda 

I was trying to find out what the actual issue is for people. Trying to get my head around where the objection lies.

Sport appears to be one of the easy win battlefields for the traditionalist. The image of some bloke called Brian rocking up at the women’s weightlifting and smashing the records. I can see there how there is an argument that teenage years of male hormone could have given bone and muscle mass that is an advantage. I can see that basing sport on whether someone has ever had a penis could be flawed.

Or are they worried about the science because they think all women must be proven to menstruate? They are worried there are specific medicines people will demand that don’t work if your sex is mis described?

Or, are they worried people will say they are a woman, so they can get in to a ladies lavatory and look at the chuffs?

I’m trying to work out where the objection is. Other than fear and outrage based on facebook anecdotes.

[tomav84]

4 hours ago, Eidolon said:

I’m pretty much trying to keep my head out of discourse (I do enough of that on twitter) but the whole Leah Thomas thing is a massive beat up full of misinformation and straight up lies. I myself was a former Australian state swimmer with a few medals at junior level and I can promise you female HRT RUINS your athletic base, she won one race out of 5 (her pet event) miles off of Ledeki’s record at the NCAA meet coming stone last in one and middling the others, doesn’t seem like a sport destroying advantage to me really…what womens sport needs to worry about are transmasc athletes with male T levels (who ARE essentially men ‘biologically’) being forced to compete in female events and ACTUALLy slaughtering them every time. It’s happening a lot in actual non pro wrestling there at the moment…but that doesn’t serve the agenda 

well a lot of it is clickbait headlines from the right wing media when actually it's really not difficult to find some facts on the matter. i'm not claiming to know everything but i'm trying to get better educated and articles like the below are very easy to find. it's very easy to say "she used to be a bloke! she cant compete in women's events!" when actually it's just not that simple

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

Quote

The NCAA champion has sparked controversy and become a hate figure among conservatives, but statistics show little evidence that she performed any differently to other women

 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I was trying to find out what the actual issue is for people. Trying to get my head around where the objection lies.

Sport appears to be one of the easy win battlefields for the traditionalist. The image of some bloke called Brian rocking up at the women’s weightlifting and smashing the records. I can see there how there is an argument that teenage years of male hormone could have given bone and muscle mass that is an advantage. I can see that basing sport on whether someone has ever had a penis could be flawed.

Or are they worried about the science because they think all women must be proven to menstruate? They are worried there are specific medicines people will demand that don’t work if your sex is mis described?

Or, are they worried people will say they are a woman, so they can get in to a ladies lavatory and look at the chuffs?

I’m trying to work out where the objection is. Other than fear and outrage based on facebook anecdotes.

Why cant they just do a transgender sports then everyone wins?

[StefanAVFC]

8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Why cant they just do a transgender sports then everyone wins?

They don't though.

A trans person (often) wants to be considered as the opposite gender. By creating a 3rd position, you're not only creating a very unlevel playing field (MTF would dominate FTM for example) but you're also singling out people who just want to be accepted.

[mjmooney]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

They don't though.

A trans person (often) wants to be considered as the opposite gender. By creating a 3rd position, you're not only creating a very unlevel playing field (MTF would dominate FTM for example) but you're also singling out people who just want to be accepted.

Going rather off topic, but did anyone watch that Ellie Simmons documentary on dwarfism last night? She was arguing against drugs which are being trialled to potentially eliminate it. She feels that the emphasis should be on teaching more acceptance of difference. Very interesting programme. 

[chrisp65]

15 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Going rather off topic, but did anyone watch that Ellie Simmons documentary on dwarfism last night? She was arguing against drugs which are being trialled to potentially eliminate it. She feels that the emphasis should be on teaching more acceptance of difference. Very interesting programme. 

Yep, I watched that and yes it was a very interesting point.

Quite compelling that you can be a tv personality, clearly intelligent and articulate, have a good family life and be a sporting success, whilst others are investing in medical programmes to eliminate people like you.