Transgenderism

[choffer]

18 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

Politicians should imho defer these issues to the relevant sporting bodies and athletes organizations.

Disagree. What politicians should do is organise a big event with all the experts on the subject, all the people with experience of working with lgbtq+ who actually understand the issue. Get them all in a room, listen to them and try to understand the issue so they can support it from a position of knowledge and understanding. 
I’ve no idea why politicians haven’t organised such an event. 
 

 

 

[Nicho]

I want to give this topic the same opinion as depression:

I acknowledge it exist, I dont have it, I dont understand it (most important), its hard for me  to comment, its a social construct issue.

However, whether because this stuff is new I struggle to accept it, the issue cannot be finite we either are or are not (biologically). 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Nicho

[Rds1983]

If you're not hurting anyone you should be free to do whatever you want, not only be able to do it but be free from judgement. How this is achieved though is for someone a lot more knowledgeable than me to figure out. Until they do all I can do is try to offer support and not judgement to anyone that needs it. 

The sporting debate is one I'm curious to learn more about as I have an interest in weightlifting/strongman etc. From that I can see the benefits higher levels of testosterone during puberty offers to these sports in terms of bone density/height/muscle-mass creating long term benefits in greater capacity for strength and power output and can see how this might transition into other sports such as swimming.

I'd appreciate if anyone has links to studies on how transitioning effects these things. As I'm keen to educate myself on what is obviously a complex subject. 

If there is an advantage I can see the argument for not allowing entry into that division. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it as it's a very complex subject with a lot of nuance but I can understand why people would query it. However I see this in the same way as an athlete using PEDs or non-regulation equipment and why certain sports have weight classes (i.e. there should be a fair playing field without uncompetitive advantage). 

If there isn't an advantage then there's absolutely no reason these athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete. 

[Rodders]

24 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

If you're not hurting anyone you should be free to do whatever you want, not only be able to do it but be free from judgement. How this is achieved though is for someone a lot more knowledgeable than me to figure out. Until they do all I can do is try to offer support and not judgement to anyone that needs it. 

The sporting debate is one I'm curious to learn more about as I have an interest in weightlifting/strongman etc. From that I can see the benefits higher levels of testosterone during puberty offers to these sports in terms of bone density/height/muscle-mass creating long term benefits in greater capacity for strength and power output and can see how this might transition into other sports such as swimming.

I'd appreciate if anyone has links to studies on how transitioning effects these things. As I'm keen to educate myself on what is obviously a complex subject. 

If there is an advantage I can see the argument for not allowing entry into that division. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it as it's a very complex subject with a lot of nuance but I can understand why people would query it. However I see this in the same way as an athlete using PEDs or non-regulation equipment and why certain sports have weight classes (i.e. there should be a fair playing field without uncompetitive advantage). 

If there isn't an advantage then there's absolutely no reason these athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete. 

The link below is to a podcast with a biologist and a runner discussing some of the science behind advantages or not of it. It is one perspective, it is about 90 minutes long, but I think it's worth a listen. To my ears at least it felt empathetic and sensitive. It generally comes down on the side of it CAN BE problematic at elite level,  but otherwise maximise inclusion where you can. It is just one perspective, I presume others are available, but it seems a decent starting point. The focus is generally on running though as it's a running podcast I believe

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Rodders

[Rds1983]

1 minute ago, Rodders said:

The link below is to a podcast with a biologist and a runner discussing some of the science behind advantages or not of it. It is one perspective, it is about 90 minutes long, but I think it's worth a listen. To my ears at least it felt empathetic and sensitive. It generally comes down on the side of it's problematic at elite level,  but otherwise maximise inclusion where you can. It is just one perspective, I presume others are available, but it seems a decent starting point. The focus is generally on running though as it's a running podcast I believe

 

 

Will take a look. Don't know much about running though, I find it boring. I try to do different forms of cardio and don't watch competitions. Distance running often involves smaller body types from what I've seen so would muscle/bone density be as important? It's the sports needing more explosive power output that I was thinking about but I guess that would include sprinting. 

I completely agree with maximising inclusion but trying to imagine (from my very limited viewpoint which I'm trying to expand) how I'd feel if I trained for 12 months to compete at a powerlifting event and was told "we don't have enough competitors for the 110kg+ class so this guy is going to compete in the 80-90kg class with you." Not a great analogy but hopefully explains what I'm curious about in whether there is an advantage or not. If there's not then no issue with them competing. 

[Davkaus]

She raises the point specific to distance running, that the gap isn't "as" big because it doesn't rely on that explosive power that short-distance running or weightlifting does. It's still a big gap at the elite level though. The world's fastest marathon time recorded by a woman is 2:14. That squeezes in to the top 20 if side by side with men. That truly is a small disadvantage compared to something like sprinting, in which the fastest woman for 100m is 10.49 seconds, which is a time beaten by schoolboys, but it's still a significant difference.

I can't think of a single sport that wouldn't see the female athletes put at a disadvantage if they have to compete against people who've had the benefit of years of testosterone. 

Elite sports is one of the very few niches in which there's an argument for some kind of exclusion on the grounds of a fair playing field, IMO, but as I think @Chindie alluded to, it gets far too much attention as a proxy to attack transrights with a degree of legitimacy. What goes on in elite sports feels of not much importance when we see what they're trying to do in Texas, etc.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Davkaus

[Rodders]

Yes I accept that this talking point is a mask at times, but for those of us who don't spend our time on twitter ( just seems to be where the argument gets referenced most ), when the issue first came up that prospect - of it being exploited - never entered my mind, but I've seen plenty of people mention that concern to acknowledge that reality. But sharing one element of agreement with those who hold altogether prejudiced viewpoints about trans does not invalidate the position either.  It seems a delicate point when generalisations are made and the transphobic line is thrown towards people, i.e. like martina navratilova, and other sports personalities, who as far as I'm aware, outside of their position on this one specific point in expressing concern for their sport, have not expressed any antagonism, and indeed do try to emphasise otherwise they are fully supportive, but still end up being lazily chucked in with broader anti trans voices. That makes discussing the issue quite tense. 

 

But I'll stop rambling as I accept the point it is dwarfing the more serious issues elsewhere. 

[Rds1983]

25 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

She raises the point specific to distance running, that the gap isn't "as" big because it doesn't rely on that explosive power that short-distance running or weightlifting does. It's still a big gap at the elite level though. The world's fastest marathon time recorded by a woman is 2:14. That squeezes in to the top 20 if side by side with men. That truly is a small disadvantage compared to something like sprinting, in which the fastest woman for 100m is 10.49 seconds, which is a time beaten by schoolboys, but it's still a significant difference.

I can't think of a single sport that wouldn't see the female athletes put at a disadvantage if they have to compete against people who've had the benefit of years of testosterone. 

Elite sports is one of the very few niches in which there's an argument for some kind of exclusion on the grounds of a fair playing field, IMO, but as I think @Chindie alluded to, it gets far too much attention as a proxy to attack transrights with a degree of legitimacy. What goes on in elite sports feels of not much importance when we see what they're trying to do in Texas, etc.

I think excluding at elite level but not amateur causes issues itself. Would a non-transgender amateur be disadvantaged in trying to become a professional/elite if competing against transgendered athletes (if they do have an advantage) in terms of getting noticed/spotted or having to win competitions to become professional (would the amateur transgendered athletes competition wins have to be marked by an asterisk - not keen on that either)? What happens to transgendered athletes who are at the elite level but are only allowed to compete at amateur (that's not fair on anyone including the transgendered athlete)? 

Agreed on what's going on in Texas (not just on transgenderism but also the erosion of other rights), that seems like a very messed up and uncaring place. I think the sports query/issue gets attention not only as a distraction tactic but because it's more easily relatable to the general public as everyone has had some level of interaction with sports (either playing or watching) but most people have had limited direct experience with openly transgender individuals. 

As I said in my original post. If people aren't hurting themselves let them do what they want. In the case of Texas it's the minorities who are being harmed as the only harm transgenderism would potentially do is to someone else's ego or sense of identity and in that balance of rights transgenderism is the one that needs greater protection. 

[sheepyvillian]

The problem with this thread is it's all he said/ she said.

[StefanAVFC]

The debate gets bogged down in sport and men dressing up as women purely to go into restrooms, like trans people don’t have better things to worry about.

It’s maddening. It’s the first thing people say - ‘would you want your daughter sharing a rest room with a trans woman?’

[mjmooney]

5 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

The problem with this thread is it's all he said/ she said.

They said. 

[PussEKatt]

Well,this is what I say.With all due respect to transgender people,Im glad im not one of them.

[Seat68]

I thought we were better than this. 

[desensitized43]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

The debate gets bogged down in sport and men dressing up as women purely to go into restrooms, like trans people don’t have better things to worry about.

It’s maddening. It’s the first thing people say - ‘would you want your daughter sharing a rest room with a trans woman?’

Tbf the people I've seen who are most concerned by that are (biological) women. I'm not sure I've ever read of an instance of someone self-identify using a womens rest room to be a pervert. I think that it's just an extension of the lazy and completely incorrect trope that gays are obviously dangerous and predatory.

Still - If we're going down the road of "do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anybody" which is always a great mantra for anything in life - are (biological) women feeling uncomfortable in their own traditional spaces getting hurt?

Personally as neither a trans woman nor a biological one, I'm not sure I'm qualified to have any say in who uses womens loos.

[Rds1983]

5 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I'm not sure I'm qualified to have any say in who uses womens loos.

Having had to clean the filthy places at the end of my bar shifts when I was at Uni. I wouldn't have minded being able to ban a few women from using them. 

[Chindie]

There are (fairly nuts imo) groups in the gay/lesbian world that also view transgenderism as a threat to them. They basically think there's a push to convince feminine gay or masculine lesbian people that they aren't just homosexual, they're actually suffering from gender issues and need to transition, which these groups then extend into a belief that basically the aim is to do away with the 'LGB community' (they carefully and purposefully remove the T).

[desensitized43]

3 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There are (fairly nuts imo) groups in the gay/lesbian world that also view transgenderism as a threat to them. They basically think there's a push to convince feminine gay or masculine lesbian people that they aren't just homosexual, they're actually suffering from gender issues and need to transition, which these groups then extend into a belief that basically the aim is to do away with the 'LGB community' (they carefully and purposefully remove the T).

Wasn't there also a real backlash against the Bisexual people from those in the Gay community? Like those were the people who couldn't make up their minds and were closet gay.

Maybe a degree of ignorance/intolerance is just something that's in human nature regardless or race, creed or orientation. 

[Rds1983]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There are (fairly nuts imo) groups in the gay/lesbian world that also view transgenderism as a threat to them. They basically think there's a push to convince feminine gay or masculine lesbian people that they aren't just homosexual, they're actually suffering from gender issues and need to transition, which these groups then extend into a belief that basically the aim is to do away with the 'LGB community' (they carefully and purposefully remove the T).

Don't forget the QIA+ too. 

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, desensitized43 said:

Wasn't there also a real backlash against the Bisexual people from those in the Gay community? Like those were the people who couldn't make up their minds and were closet gay.

Maybe a degree of ignorance/intolerance is just something that's in human nature regardless or race, creed or orientation. 

Yes there's apparently some elements of the gay/lesbian community that view Bi people as a problem, preventing people becoming truly homosexual and simultaneously also swimming in the same waters - reducing the population and pinching the population at the same time.

It's all madness.

[Wainy316]

The annoying thing is how right whingers are using their stance to say they are defending women as if women's rights ever concerned them before.

Similarly how they've just decided that Western invasions of Iraq and weapons supplies to the Saudis (normally left wing gripes) are bad as a means to defend Putin.