HanoiVillan Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, snowychap said: I'd hope you haven't because I don't think anyone has made that argument (apologies if I've missed where they have) and because that argument (as you phrase it above) doesn't hold. No need to apologise, and it wasn't directed at you, but at @terrytini, and if his argument is more detailed than I glossed as 'sitting down at a safe distance from other people puts you or anyone else at more risk than running at a safe distance from other people', then perhaps he could contribute more than no-shit-sherlock responses like 'lying down isn't exercising'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: So, right now the ‘science’ behind the government lockdown is suggesting that all week I can travel around the country visiting live building sites. But on the weekend, I can’t visit the park that is 10 minutes walk from my house. I can’t visit the park, because instead of closing roads to car traffic, the authorities are allowing traffic to travel 20 miles to this park, but filming it from their helicopters and telling us they will need to crack down on us all. Perhaps park one of your helicopters on the road in to town? Save some fuel, cut out the noise pollution, solve the **** problem? If the authorities are getting it wrong, we need to speak up against blind stupidity and blind obedience. Surely you can visit the park if you're walking 10 minutes to it? I went for a run through our local park yesterday. Closing the roads would stop people getting to work or shopping which I assume is what most of the traffic is these days rather than going to parks. I do find it a bit rum that the government were getting pelters for not introducing the lock down earlier thus endangering lives but then are accused of being authoritarian a week or two later. Edited April 5, 2020 by sharkyvilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leighavfc Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Well just got back from a bike ride in Sutton park, some observations...... Very busy today, most people walking, jogging or riding bikes.... amongst the people exercising are people taking the piss.... A couple having a bbq .. several lads in 2 cars standing around smoking weed together... 2 elderly couples pull up greet each other then walk off together with their dogs. Several big parties of people walking together! Just phoned my mom who lives near one of the other entrances.. she says the car park is rammed full, golfers on the closed golf course.. Why cant people just do as they are told too? This next phase of lockdown will be coming for sure the way its going. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I do find it a bit rum that the government were getting pelters for not introducing the lock down earlier thus endangering lives but then are accused of being authoritarian a week or two later. I don't at all. I think the current laws are just about right, but it's certainly possible to overcorrect. It'd be ludicrous for us to have no laws against possessing weapons, but if they heard the message, went the other way, and suddenly nobody is allowed to own a spoon, I'd be equally unhappy. Edited April 5, 2020 by Davkaus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Our lockdown isn't as bad as yours, we are allowed out but only in 2s Seeing photos of the police telling a couple on a UK beach eating fish and chips that they aren't allowed to be there You can do that here no problem, just been through the local park, lots of people about but all in 2s, lots of police checking it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I do find it a bit rum that the government were getting pelters for not introducing the lock down earlier thus endangering lives but then are accused of being authoritarian a week or two later. 3 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I don't at all. I think the current laws are just about right, but it's certainly possible to overcorrect. It'd be ludicrous for us to have no laws against possessing weapons, but if they heard the message, went the other way, and suddenly nobody is allowed to own a spoon, I'd be equally unhappy. The difference is that the scientific evidence for the lockdown was clear, supported by visible evidence from other countries, especially China and increasingly Italy, and acknowledged by the government, who were pressured into admitting (through back-channels of course) that the advice they had been previously using now appeared to be wrong, and that the lockdown would save something of the order of a quarter of a million lives. I am not an epidemiologist, and it is certainly possible that someone can offer me an explanation as to why 'sitting in the park away from people' is different from 'exercising away from people' in terms of your likelihood or catching or transmitting the virus, but so far, only @snowychap has made an effort to try to suggest why that might be true. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but people need to realise the scale of the ask here, as well as how uneven it is. Lots and lots of people still have to go work, in hospitals, schools, supermarkets, power stations, cleaning the streets and whatever else - on average, these people are younger and more working class. Lots of people don't have gardens or large rural or suburban houses - disproportionately younger and more disadvantaged people. Homeowners have a mortgage holiday, but renters (younger, more working class) get nothing. If the government want to make a new law that forbids people from leaving their homes, or want councils to enforce these rules rigidly, then the rules should visibly be based on evidence that clearly leads to saving people's lives, like the lockdown was. Otherwise people are just asking the worst off to suffer disproportionately, and shouldn't be surprised when people start pushing back against this hypothetical law. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: The difference is that the scientific evidence for the lockdown was clear, supported by visible evidence from other countries, especially China and increasingly Italy, and acknowledged by the government, who were pressured into admitting (through back-channels of course) that the advice they had been previously using now appeared to be wrong, and that the lockdown would save something of the order of a quarter of a million lives. I am not an epidemiologist, and it is certainly possible that someone can offer me an explanation as to why 'sitting in the park away from people' is different from 'exercising away from people' in terms of your likelihood or catching or transmitting the virus, but so far, only @snowychap has made an effort to try to suggest why that might be true. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but people need to realise the scale of the ask here, as well as how uneven it is. Lots and lots of people still have to go work, in hospitals, schools, supermarkets, power stations, cleaning the streets and whatever else - on average, these people are younger and more working class. Lots of people don't have gardens or large rural or suburban houses - disproportionately younger and more disadvantaged people. Homeowners have a mortgage holiday, but renters (younger, more working class) get nothing. If the government want to make a new law that forbids people from leaving their homes, or want councils to enforce these rules rigidly, then the rules should visibly be based on evidence that clearly leads to saving people's lives, like the lockdown was. Otherwise people are just asking the worst off to suffer disproportionately, and shouldn't be surprised when people start pushing back against this hypothetical law. You looking far to much into it chap. Just Fooking Stay at home, if you cant keep to social distancing rules simple as that!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 25 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Surely you can visit the park if you're walking 10 minutes to it? I went for a run through our local park yesterday. Closing the roads would stop people getting to work or shopping which I assume is what most of the traffic is these days rather than going to parks. I do find it a bit rum that the government were getting pelters for not introducing the lock down earlier thus endangering lives but then are accused of being authoritarian a week or two later. Yes, I should be able to visit the park. But what happens when people get in their cars and drive to that same park? Are the police stopping the cars? Or are the councils closing the parks? That’s the idiotic problem here. My road is a main route to a country park and a beach. The road is busy today, it’s really weird hearing traffic noise again but there is a constant stream of traffic heading in the direction of the beach and the country park. There are no supermarkets west of here and I’m fairly sure there aren’t hundreds of essential jobs that all start just after lunch. It would take two police cars to completely stop tourism. Instead, the **** sky is noisy with helicopters filming them. No doubt tomorrow we’ll be told parks and beaches are out of bounds. Its piss poor organisation in a world with a higher than anticipated proportion of morons. In the past, they would close the road. Job done, total resource one police officer, two specials and a car. Now, no crowd control, three helicopters. They do love their toys. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) I hear murmurs about Denmark and Norway considering opening nurseries and schools after Easter if people behave. I guess the economy in the countries that are managing okay now need to consider how long they are going to be able to sustain the lockdown before people's jobs, civil unrest and economic downturn also needs to be a focus. In Norway's example my friends over there are increasingly telling me that people are starting to wonder if it's worth losing billions a month because of the current 66 dead people with an average age of 84 and 100 or so people in respirators out a population of 5 million. The amount of kids that are at home with abusive parents with no state control these days for example probably far outweigh the 200 people that are currently either dead or on respirators\intensive care. Edited April 5, 2020 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post wilko154 Posted April 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) I hope they announce a full lockdown tonight. People in this country are absolute idiots, the fact they can't follow some simple guidelines is baffling. Stay at home, go to work if you are required to, go to the supermarket once a week (one person from each household) and exercise once a day if you want to (i.e. a walk, a bike ride, a run, and then go back home). There is absolutely no reason for people to be sunbathing in parks, eating outside of their houses, talking in the street, driving around the country. The fact this country can't stick to the guidelines is embarrassing. Previous generations went to war, fought for our nation, died for our nation, this generation can't sit on their sofa's and watch Netflix for a few weeks. Rant over. Edited April 5, 2020 by wilko154 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Tory filth Mogg made the papers. Something to do with disaster capitalism. I didn't pick it up. Golly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted April 5, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, leighavfc said: Well just got back from a bike ride in Sutton park, some observations...... Very busy today, most people walking, jogging or riding bikes.... amongst the people exercising are people taking the piss.... A couple having a bbq .. several lads in 2 cars standing around smoking weed together... 2 elderly couples pull up greet each other then walk off together with their dogs. Several big parties of people walking together! Just phoned my mom who lives near one of the other entrances.. she says the car park is rammed full, golfers on the closed golf course.. Why cant people just do as they are told too? This next phase of lockdown will be coming for sure the way its going. Sounds like there is going to be another jump in cases in 2 or 3 weeks then, just as things are probably on the downwards spiral they will about turn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Interesting that now I’m not working and life in general is slow and relaxed as you can’t go anywhere other than the supermarket , I see the Lycra brigade out on their bikes taking up 3/4s of the road and think , fair play getting some exercise .... rather than get out the effing way you Lycra wearing clearing in the woods 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Xann said: Tory filth Mogg made the papers. Something to do with disaster capitalism. I didn't pick it up. Golly. His dad wrote the book on disaster capitalism, literally. Utter words removed the pair of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I guess the economy in the countries that are managing okey now need to consider how long they are going to be able to sustain the lockdown before people's jobs, civil unrest and economic downturn also needs to be a focus. Exactly, what I don’t know is how you identify the tipping point where furlough for workers transitions to unemployment because businesses are no longer viable. I’m all for individual workers being bank-rolled by the government for months if necessary, the issue then is having no job to go back to. If Starmer wants to make a splash then some well developed proposals for universal basic income would be hard to resist once the post-crisis crisis hits. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, wilko154 said: I hope they announce a full lockdown tonight. People in this country are absolute idiots, the fact they can't follow some simple guidelines is baffling. Stay at home, go to work if you are required to, go to the supermarket once a week (one person from each household) and exercise once a day if you want to (i.e. a walk, a bike ride, a run, and then go back home). There is absolutely no reason for people to be sunbathing in parks, eating outside of their houses, talking in the street, driving around the country. The fact this country can't stick to the guidelines is embarrassing. Previous generations went to war, fought for our nation, died for our nation, this generation can't sit on their sofa's and watch Netflix for a few weeks. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 5, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yes, I should be able to visit the park. But what happens when people get in their cars and drive to that same park? Are the police stopping the cars? Or are the councils closing the parks? That’s the idiotic problem here. My road is a main route to a country park and a beach. The road is busy today, it’s really weird hearing traffic noise again but there is a constant stream of traffic heading in the direction of the beach and the country park. There are no supermarkets west of here and I’m fairly sure there aren’t hundreds of essential jobs that all start just after lunch. It would take two police cars to completely stop tourism. Instead, the **** sky is noisy with helicopters filming them. No doubt tomorrow we’ll be told parks and beaches are out of bounds. Its piss poor organisation in a world with a higher than anticipated proportion of morons. In the past, they would close the road. Job done, total resource one police officer, two specials and a car. Now, no crowd control, three helicopters. They do love their toys. Our main local beach is National Trust. There are two car parks (and really, the only two access points to the public (unless you are a local, there's a few others only locals would know). Both car parks are blocked off and the council have transferred the traffic wardens from patrolling the (now free) car parks in the village, To patrolling the access roads and ticketing any car in sight. The result is, only locals in there because they know how to get in Might take a walk to our local beach in a bit (It's effectively across the road but I have to walk 200 yards up the road to get access), guaranteed to be next to no-one there because... its a shit beach (nice big elevated sewer pipe down the middle of it) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, Awol said: Exactly, what I don’t know is how you identify the tipping point where furlough for workers transitions to unemployment because businesses are no longer viable. I’m all for individual workers being bank-rolled by the government for months if necessary, the issue then is having no job to go back to. If Starmer wants to make a splash then some well developed proposals for universal basic income would be hard to resist once the post-crisis crisis hits. I think the issue is how payments from the state to the worker is done too. In cases where the state pays the companies I see it becoming a hotbed of abuse, in example in companies making people work while furloughed, pretending that they are in training etc. Ideally the system should provide the money straight to the worker in which case the chance of abusing the system is much negated. In a mate of mine's job (Danish) they've reduced everyone's salary by 30%, then applied for furloughs, which in all decency saves them 30% out of the 25% the company has to contribute to the salary before the state contributes 75%. In effect this costs the employee 30% of his full salary, while it costs the company a whole lot less. I presume trickery like this is rife. It just shows you how much companies really care about their employees when they are stress tested like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, bickster said: Our main local beach is National Trust. There are two car parks (and really, the only two access points to the public (unless you are a local, there's a few others only locals would know). Both car parks are blocked off and the council have transferred the traffic wardens from patrolling the (now free) car parks in the village, To patrolling the access roads and ticketing any car in sight. The result is, only locals in there because they know how to get in Might take a walk to our local beach in a bit (It's effectively across the road but I have to walk 200 yards up the road to get access), guaranteed to be next to no-one there because... its a shit beach (nice big elevated sewer pipe down the middle of it) When its all opened up again I might ask you for those local routes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 5, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Seat68 said: When its all opened up again I might ask you for those local routes. Might cost you a pint 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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