Sam-AVFC Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: How long does it go on for? Indefinitely? The point has been made as much as it’s going to be made, it’s losing any effectiveness it may have had as a symbolic gesture of support and is now just something the players do as a matter of course. If it had been down to the PL and the clubs I suggest this would have stopped already but they’ll let it drag out until it’s more socially acceptable to stop it altogether. I expect it will go on for the season then end. I don't disagree with any of that, I disagree with the premise that Millwall fans are symbolically protesting against what they view as a Marxist organisation and are simply calling for a collaborative approach to end racism in sport. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Haha Farage was not supposed to be either of them I was thinking more that 'BLM' was Malcolm X and 'Kick it Out' was MLK Jr in this analogy. Yes, I got that I'm perhaps not being very clear, but my point is that the 'tactical' debate between X and King (and many other participants of course) was one of which way to challenge racists was best for their eventual goals. Political figures who were strongly opposed to their goals - your George Wallaces, in this parallel - had no time for either, because they correctly understood both arms of the 'tactical' debate to be antithetical to their interests. If either King or X were to have proposed actions that George Wallace was gushing about in public, presumably we wouldn't be looking back at that one and thinking they were on the right side of the debate. To step back from this historical comparison, the potted history here is that there is a black empowerment movement with radical origins called Black Lives Matter; they used a variety of tactics throughout 2020 to push racial justice up the political agenda; one small tactic among many was 'taking the knee'; this happened in the Premier League, initially fairly spontaneously; it was quickly institutionalised (a set time given between blows of the referee's whistle, no less) this season; the gesture became a ritual divorced from any actual political discussion, but still with a form derived from radical politics (taking the knee); now, a separate form is being proposed, with the radical origin removed, and an approved-by-racists form put in its place that is barely any different from shaking hands. By this stage, we are so far from the politics and struggle of racial justice that we're mouthing platitudes and performing ritualised empty gestures, devoid of meaning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: How long does it go on for? Indefinitely? A question black people in the USA, and to a lesser degree in Europe have been asking for decades. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 50 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: I expect it will go on for the season then end. I don't disagree with any of that, I disagree with the premise that Millwall fans are symbolically protesting against what they view as a Marxist organisation and are simply calling for a collaborative approach to end racism in sport. I think to write off every person who chose to boo as being servile racist scum is perhaps a little wide of the mark, sure there definitely will have been servile scum involved, not least as it was a Millwall home game but I can well imagine some of the folks booing the act itself rather than the wider connotations. I don’t consider myself to be racist but I find myself rolling my eyes now when I see the whole take a knee thing happen before a match, now I wouldn’t go so far as to boo it at a live event because I think that’s distasteful but I also think it should stop happening, and soon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 25 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I think to write off every person who chose to boo as being servile racist scum is perhaps a little wide of the mark, sure there definitely will have been servile scum involved, not least as it was a Millwall home game but I can well imagine some of the folks booing the act itself rather than the wider connotations. I don’t consider myself to be racist but I find myself rolling my eyes now when I see the whole take a knee thing happen before a match, now I wouldn’t go so far as to boo it at a live event because I think that’s distasteful but I also think it should stop happening, and soon too. That's the difference though isn't it? They are actively booing it. I don't think the gesture is anything but a hollow one but I wouldn't boo it because I might as well be booing what the gesture is supposed to symbolize. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: How long does it go on for? Indefinitely? Aren't there a number of players kind of leading this? - I think Tyrone is one of them. I think they feel that it should go on campaigning until things change so that Black Lives Matter to the same extent and just as much White lives already matter. Whether the player's "gesture" will change anything on its own is a bit doubtful, but as a symbol of a fight to make things better it serves a purpose - not just by signalling their desire for things to improve to "us" (the onlookers), but also to reinforce for themselves a togetherness in chasing things which are not "gestures" but real action. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted December 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, Keyblade said: That's the difference though isn't it? They are actively booing it. I don't think the gesture is anything but a hollow one but I wouldn't boo it because I might as well be booing what the gesture is supposed to symbolize. exactly this. sat in the ground rolling your eyes is one thing, or finishing your pre match pint whilst the teams are coming out and kneeling so you don't feel the need to participate. but they booed...even after the players released a statement the previous day clarifying they were not kneeling for any political movement, but purely racial discrimination fortunately there appears to be a trend of clapping if you support it vs booing if you dont. i just hope any boos are drowned out at VP when the time comes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: Aren't there a number of players kind of leading this? - I think Tyrone is one of them. I think they feel that it should go on campaigning until things change so that Black Lives Matter to the same extent and just as much White lives already matter. Whether the player's "gesture" will change anything on its own is a bit doubtful, but as a symbol of a fight to make things better it serves a purpose - not just by signalling their desire for things to improve to "us" (the onlookers), but also to reinforce for themselves a togetherness in chasing things which are not "gestures" but real action. I don’t know who is ‘in control’ of it, if anyone, the message is being diminished because it isn’t adding anything new, I think by now the issue of race and equality is front and centre enough without the need for this to continue. Racism will eventually be a thing of the past, it’s quite clearly moving in that direction, of course many people want to hurry it along but it’s part of our evolution as a species, it will happen in its own time, that’s not to say there shouldn’t be a focus on it, but not through a diminishing token gesture by football players, in my small and non-expert opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 I can completely accept that some people see the need to boo an anti racism gesture so the politics of an American group do not sneak in to our psyche and corrupt our political outlook. They don’t believe they are racist, they just believe the political anti Marxist fight is more important. It’s a view that is clearly bollocks, but I can accept a very small number of people may hold the view. Racists can be sly little **** once one of them has half an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I can completely accept that some people see the need to boo an anti racism gesture so the politics of an American group do not sneak in to our psyche and corrupt our political outlook. They don’t believe they are racist, they just believe the political anti Marxist fight is more important. It’s a view that is clearly bollocks, but I can accept a very small number of people may hold the view. Racists can be sly little **** once one of them has half an idea. I'd put good money on even those people not having the slightest clue about the Marxism they're opposing. Even if they don't know it, the fight against "Marxism" is just cover for racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Cleveland Indians have announced they're changing their name following the Washington Redskins Braves, chiefs and blackhawks now under pressure to do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Awol Posted December 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2020 On 09/12/2020 at 16:27, blandy said: Aren't there a number of players kind of leading this? - I think Tyrone is one of them. I think they feel that it should go on campaigning until things change so that Black Lives Matter to the same extent and just as much White lives already matter. Whether the player's "gesture" will change anything on its own is a bit doubtful, but as a symbol of a fight to make things better it serves a purpose - not just by signalling their desire for things to improve to "us" (the onlookers), but also to reinforce for themselves a togetherness in chasing things which are not "gestures" but real action. I wonder if those Nike sponsored athletes will back up their anti-discrimination solidarity when it hits them in the pocket? (I’m assuming that Asian lives also matter). Slavery. Just do it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2020 I'm in a what's app group with a few old friends. There has always been a current of racist postings and I was critical of one a few month ago and got the "it's only a bit of fun" line. It's got a bit more OTT recently so I just asked them to stop or I leave the group. Got some apologise but now the group has been renamed the Snowflakes group. They're all good mates, decent people and not overtly racist (though I have my suspicions of one) but it just really annoys me that these kind of posts continue to reinforce racism and passing it off as just bants is not acceptable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, sidcow said: I'm in a what's app group with a few old friends. There has always been a current of racist postings and I was critical of one a few month ago and got the "it's only a bit of fun" line. It's got a bit more OTT recently so I just asked them to stop or I leave the group. Got some apologise but now the group has been renamed the Snowflakes group. They're all good mates, decent people and not overtly racist (though I have my suspicions of one) but it just really annoys me that these kind of posts continue to reinforce racism and passing it off as just bants is not acceptable. Its a difficult one and I have had a similar scenario myself. Not race as the whatsapp group was made up of 3 white men, a white woman, 2 asian lads and a black lad. It was homophobic shite. I gave it a warning and then left it. Still friends with them all, have no issues one to one but a pack mentality brings things like this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Its a difficult one and I have had a similar scenario myself. Not race as the whatsapp group was made up of 3 white men, a white woman, 2 asian lads and a black lad. It was homophobic shite. I gave it a warning and then left it. Still friends with them all, have no issues one to one but a pack mentality brings things like this out. The pack mentality thing is so right. Not one of those people would send any of those things individually to me one on one. I'm not talking about really offensive stuff until the last one where I threatened to leave, just the general tone. Hopefully it's point made and the group will clear up now. Edited December 17, 2020 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Bit of a dust up on campus- Quote A student said she was racially profiled while eating in a college dorm. An investigation found no evidence of bias. But the incident will not fade away. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 15 hours ago, maqroll said: Bit of a dust up on campus- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html That narrowboat and isolated living sure does sound more appealing with each passing day after reading stuff like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 thats pretty mental, she's absolutely busting for a fight, as shown by the feminist stuff she also tacked on (seen a picture of her, shes got a grade 4 buzzcut all over) the campus police officer being called and having to be involved rather than just being able to talk to someone shows how mad america is, so i have sympathy for her feeling offended and threatened by that...but thats where it stops, she's out of order, especially the facebook stuff, i would be very interested to know the public perception on it, i would guess that it doesn't favour her, especially crossing demographics whats not discussed on there is the recompense...how much did the lawyers earn from this nonsense? how much did they all try and sue each other for? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 5 hours ago, villa4europe said: thats pretty mental, she's absolutely busting for a fight, as shown by the feminist stuff she also tacked on (seen a picture of her, shes got a grade 4 buzzcut all over) the campus police officer being called and having to be involved rather than just being able to talk to someone shows how mad america is, so i have sympathy for her feeling offended and threatened by that...but thats where it stops, she's out of order, especially the facebook stuff, i would be very interested to know the public perception on it, i would guess that it doesn't favour her, especially crossing demographics whats not discussed on there is the recompense...how much did the lawyers earn from this nonsense? how much did they all try and sue each other for? You can gauge public perception by reading the comment section. I'm assuming because the ACLU took her case, its pro bono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) On 17/12/2020 at 08:57, villa4europe said: Cleveland Indians have announced they're changing their name following the Washington Redskins Braves, chiefs and blackhawks now under pressure to do the same Not knowing anything about American history.... are Indians, Redskins, Braves, Chiefs and Blackhawks racist words for the native American people? Or is it more a case of cultural appropriation? If so, is it bad in this context? I think i would like to have a team named after my ancestry - it would make me feel proud when that team did well. and i'd probably have started supporting them from a young age as my team. Edited February 26, 2021 by ender4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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