Racism Part two

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

We want to show solidarity in the face of police brutality and racism more generally but it makes things more complicated to get consensus if BLM is going to be the new vehicle for that, in place of ‘kick it out’ or other more neutral organisations that were previously actively fighting racism.

On the other hand maybe controversy/polarisation is a good way to get headlines and keep the topic on people’s minds?

I can’t help but think that this kind of polarisation of opinions only drives people further into a more extreme position though. That Guardian article linked above is a pretty good example. I can’t imagine Millwall fans reading that are going to jump onboard with the cause. It’s more likely to make them even more defensive about their position.

'Kick It Out' and other institutional frameworks have arguably outlived their usefulness in their current form. A lot of progress has been made on aspects of questions of racism in football; there are fewer outright racist chants, fewer bananas thrown or monkey noises made. Nearly everyone now professes at least a theoretical agreement that racism in football is bad, such that even the booing Millwall fans feel compelled to deny that they are booing because they are racist. That's all good, but there are problems as well; there are still few black captains, few black coaches, few black managers. Minority fans are not increasing in share of the audience proportional to their share of the population. When questioned, they profess fear of a hostile atmosphere, including the possibility of racist abuse. The FA's current anti-racism initiatives are not doing anything; nobody cites them when the issue comes up, nobody refers back to their great successes.

While the current situation is much better than it was 20 years ago, let alone 30 or 40 years ago, clearly plenty of people are not satisfied. And if you want to change the political weather, you probably aren't going to do it through stale vehicles like Kick It Out. One solution is to drive it up the agenda and into people's consciousness. Of course, every action provokes a reaction, so people shouldn't be *surprised* about what happened this weekend. But if they think it's important to fight for, then controversy and polarisation is a way to do it, especially if you think the 'march through the institutions' is going nowhere.

None of this is to say that I personally think the campaign has been a big success. I said the other day in the 'Racism In Football' thread that few tangible demands have emerged for the football indudstry from the BLM movement, which is why it is being captured by the institutions and petering out in increasingly formulaic displays on the pitch. A wide-but-blunt protest movement like BLM that does not end up articulating specific asks can only ever really hope to either meet friendly bureaucrats who want to find ways to help, or else to do a bit of general consciousness-raising, because it inevitably comes unstuck when it meets concerted opposition.

[Follyfoot]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's maybe worth noting that at least one of Millwall's black players doesn't feel that the booing had little to do with racism:

'Afterwards some supporters claimed their actions were not racist but merely expressing their disdain for the politics of the “Marxist” Black Lives Matters movement. The Millwall defender Mahlon Romeo saw through that. “Spreading hatred”, he called it.

“What they’ve done is booed and condemned a peaceful gesture which was put in place to highlight, combat and stop any discriminatory behaviour and racism,” said Romeo, a London-born black player who has represented Antigua and Barbuda. “That’s it – that’s all that gesture is. But in society there is a problem – and that problem is racism.”'

quote from: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/dec/06/toxicity-on-show-at-millwall-goes-beyond-the-club-and-football

Of course he is going to think and believe that is the case. it is the default position that most would interpret from what happened. It would take an incredibly brave man in his position to suggest any other reasoning. We have the view and and explanations of the event from the players and the perpetrators, where the truth lies may be somewhere in the middle but I still believe the club are not institutionally racist as portrayed by the media. I do not believe there has been any protest at Den with regard to the Kick it Out  campaign which also suggests there is a clear difference in this incident,

Edited December 8, 2020 by Follyfoot

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

I wonder if the Millwall booing thing is about feeling put upon by a social movement that didn't start in Britain? Maybe they think it's gone on too long now. No matter what is is, it's not a good look for the club.

Playing Devil's Advocate, mind you.

I think it’s as you say for a lot of people the BLM stuff was about some bloke got murdered in America by the police and then people gathered in large numbers in the UK during a lockdown  and vandalised statues .... and then seeing football players taking the knee in support of this “cause” doesn’t sit well with those people . 

some people are going to do their homework and understand what the cause is about but the vast majority of people are in the like and share mentality where actually understanding isn’t a requirement.

The knee that footballers are taking to show support and solidarity , I guess you’d have to ask is it actually achieving anything  ? Is it bringing about a more tolerant society or is it actually driving a bigger wedge in society ... they banned out tv programs  , they demolished our  statues and  nobody took a knee for Lee Rigby  and so forth ...

if you want to convert the ignorant I think a new method may be required , be interesting to see how the Millwall players  linking arms thing plays out  , it might be seen as less antagonising by their Neanderthal fan base 

[maqroll]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

The knee that footballers are taking to show support and solidarity , I guess you’d have to ask is it actually achieving anything  ?

It's a fair question. But clearly anything the FA has attempted has failed. Slogans and knee-taking are fine, but basically toothless. But it's hard to succeed in stamping racism out in football when there's a surging groundswell of nationalism and racism in Europe and USA. The bad guys are ascendant, even with Trump heading for the exit. Racist goons like those Millwall fans might feel like they have some vague form of cover to act out. It'll be interesting to see how other fans react around the country as they come back.

[HanoiVillan]

19 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I still believe the club are not institutionally racist as portrayed by the media.

The problem is not the club so much as the fans. They have a disproportionate share of angry, violent, right-wing supporters. No, of course this isn't all their fans, but they have a reputation and it is to a large extent self-reinforcing, because that reputation attracts fans of a certain disposition.

23 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I do not believe there has been any protest at Den with regard to the Kick it Out  campaign which also suggests there is a clear difference in this incident,

I think we should consider that this may represent less agreement with the aims of institutional anti-racism campaigns, and instead an understanding that these are toothless vehicles that required little more than empty platitudes.

[bickster]

8 hours ago, LondonLax said:

That Guardian article linked above is a pretty good example. I can’t imagine Millwall fans reading that.

If you'd stopped there you'd have been more accurate

[Davkaus]

I wonder what political commentary Millwall fans were trying to make when they chanted "I'd rather be a paki than a scouse" just a couple of seasons ago when playing Everton.

I seem to recall the same slur being chanted at us a few years ago too. The subtleties were lost on me, I confess.

 

Edit: I did actually pause for a few moments before posting this and apologise if even quoting the term in context is over the line, but I thought highlighting some of the other things they think appropriate was necessary in this discussion, and shoving an asterisk in there seemed like a cheap way out that doesn't actually reduce any offence. Happy for it to be edited out if mods disagree! 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Davkaus

[Seat68]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I wonder what political commentary Millwall fans were trying to make when they chanted "I'd rather be a paki than a scouse" just a couple of seasons ago when playing Everton.

I seem to recall the same slur being chanted at us a few years ago too. The subtleties were lost on me, I confess.

Its clearly a protest against marxism. 

[Davkaus]

4 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Its clearly a protest against marxism. 

They also seemed concerned that multiculturalism in Birmingham has gone too far, and we're becoming a Pakistani monoculture. Not how I'd have expressed it, but they're entitled to their view. Or perhaps they're a racist bunch of knuckledraggers who revel in how much they're reviled. 50/50.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Davkaus

[Wainy316]

Tonight's going to be interesting.  Sad to see such an issue reduced to drama but I'll be tuning in to the see the pre match shenanigans.

Millwall at home against QPR.  The latter had stopped taking the knee at Les Ferdinand's request but are now going to reverse their stance and do it tonight in response to Millwall's reaction on Saturday.

I saw a fan on the Millwall forum call them 'Queer Park Rangers' for it.  Lolz, aren't they a witty bunch 

 

[HanoiVillan]

12 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

'Queer Park Rangers'

If Channel 5 want to make that documentary, I hereby commit to watching it.

[Seat68]

Its no queer mint rhino. Millwall really are the most backward of football fans. Them and Oldham. 

[ender4]

6 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Millwall really are the most backward of football fans. Them and Oldham. 

SHA would like to enter this room.

[rjw63]

I don't do twatter but someone just Whatsapped me this...the comments are like it's 1974 again and the grammar...makes me feel like a MENSA genius.

[Chindie]

One wonders how they walk with this never bending knee thing.

[rjw63]

No idea who this is, but if it's a true quote she's no better

[bobzy]

5 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Its clearly a protest against marxism. 

 

[maqroll]

David Squires on … the booing of footballers taking a knee | Football | The Guardian

 

[Follyfoot]

2 hours ago, maqroll said:

David Squires on … the booing of footballers taking a knee | Football | The Guardian

 

I assume the 'contrarian commentator' is supposed to be Brendan O'Neill and in response to this ? 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

Football fans have had enough of the virtue-signalling nonsense of Black Lives Matter.........................

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Follyfoot

[Xela]

It feels as though there is more racial tension in the country than there has been for years. 

Divide and conquer in its purest form.