Houllier or Mcleish

[KHV]

Would have liked to have seen if Houllier could have sorted out the defensive problems as that was his only downfall. Lets not forget we lost more points from a winning position than any other team last year. If the defence was solid I reckon we would have made top 6 again.

I think GH would have got rid of Collins, Dunne, Beye and Warnock and we would have a totally new defence but its all ifs and buts. Now we have Eck so we have 2 deep lying midfielders and no supply to Darren Bent, I cant believe we didnt give him an opportunty until the 83rd minute against Wolves, says it all really

[Villarocker]

McLeish was the wrong choice for manager from the start.

I think Randy has panicked big time. I think he watched us go so far under O'Neill's ownership and was relatively happy with where we were going. But, he then realised that we needed to play the kids a bit more because he cannot afford big wages for players to sit on their arses for 3 or 4 years.

So, he brought in a man with a plan to use his coaching skills to develop a brand of football that would help us progress. He probably had a vision to take us forward but the older players weren't really up for change that much and spat the dummy out. Eventually, they probably realised that they wouldn't be Premier League players for much longer unless they got their finger out and they started to play for him. Houllier probably realised they weren't good enough to play his style of footie and had plans in place to get rid asap so that he could bring in some footballing defenders. However, heart troubles flared up and out he goes.

Lerner then looks for someone with the same footballing philosophy who won't need mega millions to spend and Martinez was the target. However, he knocked us back and then the search began for an alternative. They panicked and thought they needed someone in sooner rather than later and so they went for the same cheap option who would work to the same kind of budget but unfortunately they chose a guy who was so overwhelmingly unliked that he will be too scared to pick the kids because this man will need results more than anything and, in his mind, his best chance of getting results will be by playing his most experienced players and being as solid as possible. It is understandable but not really what we want for the long term good of the club IMO.

Steaknchips has had a bit of a hammering on here lately but he has a very good point on certain things. We have fans who don't want us to buy our way to things. They say they don't want us to be some Arab Billionaire's play thing. Well, unless we do become one of those, the only way to challenge is with a different approach to what we have had for the last 5 years of Lerner's ownership.

We need to have a man in charge, with Houllier's type of vision of how the game can be played, and who will allow those youngsters a smooth progression through to the first team. To do this we need to be really patient and we need our owner to come out of the General's bunker and say something like "Look folks, we can't join them or beat them with my finances, so we are going to try a different approach. It may take a further 5 years or maybe even 10. You may see some midtable finishes and even a brush with relegation but it is all for the long term good of the club. We need to allow time for the development of our new coaches and a scouting system that will allow us to pick up these young, talented players so that we can bring them in and develop them even further. They will eventually be first team stars and by taking this new approach we will be able to invest our money in bigger named players who will make the starting 11. But, we need time and we need you to help us get there and be patient with us".

The General has hinted at such a thing in the past but employing McLeish completely blows the philosophy out of the water IMO. We need to look for someone who can buy into the plan. I would even go as far as allowing a man to come in and allow him to name the coaches and scouts that he wishes to work with. If that means that the likes of Kevin MacDonald and Sid Cowans are released then so be it. I just want us to have a plan and to stick to it. To go from Martinez to McLeish is like going from a Poodle to a Rottweiler!

[TRO]

Unless you have a manager of top quality like Ferguson or Mourinho.... most managers play the style of football that keeps them in the job for the longest possible period.

If they think playing high tempo open attractive football will limit their time at the club.... they will play an alternative style.

In other words its all about self survival from the Manager.

I don't see much evidence in the last 20 or so years of team development on a consistent basis....its about live for today.

[RunRickyRun]

its catch 22. under houllier shocking defence but better style of football. under mcleish a absolute more solid look but poor football

I don't know about that.

Under Houllier ever free kick, corner and even throw in conceeded was painful. I don't think it was enjoyable in the least.

Apart from Blackburn and Man Utd at home, I'm struggling to think of any games where we really expressed ourselves. Certainly not enough to be described as a better style of football.

[TRO]

McLeish was the wrong choice for manager from the start.

I think Randy has panicked big time. I think he watched us go so far under O'Neill's ownership and was relatively happy with where we were going. But, he then realised that we needed to play the kids a bit more because he cannot afford big wages for players to sit on their arses for 3 or 4 years.

So, he brought in a man with a plan to use his coaching skills to develop a brand of football that would help us progress. He probably had a vision to take us forward but the older players weren't really up for change that much and spat the dummy out. Eventually, they probably realised that they wouldn't be Premier League players for much longer unless they got their finger out and they started to play for him. Houllier probably realised they weren't good enough to play his style of footie and had plans in place to get rid asap so that he could bring in some footballing defenders. However, heart troubles flared up and out he goes.

Lerner then looks for someone with the same footballing philosophy who won't need mega millions to spend and Martinez was the target. However, he knocked us back and then the search began for an alternative. They panicked and thought they needed someone in sooner rather than later and so they went for the same cheap option who would work to the same kind of budget but unfortunately they chose a guy who was so overwhelmingly unliked that he will be too scared to pick the kids because this man will need results more than anything and, in his mind, his best chance of getting results will be by playing his most experienced players and being as solid as possible. It is understandable but not really what we want for the long term good of the club IMO.

Steaknchips has had a bit of a hammering on here lately but he has a very good point on certain things. We have fans who don't want us to buy our way to things. They say they don't want us to be some Arab Billionaire's play thing. Well, unless we do become one of those, the only way to challenge is with a different approach to what we have had for the last 5 years of Lerner's ownership.

We need to have a man in charge, with Houllier's type of vision of how the game can be played, and who will allow those youngsters a smooth progression through to the first team. To do this we need to be really patient and we need our owner to come out of the General's bunker and say something like "Look folks, we can't join them or beat them with my finances, so we are going to try a different approach. It may take a further 5 years or maybe even 10. You may see some midtable finishes and even a brush with relegation but it is all for the long term good of the club. We need to allow time for the development of our new coaches and a scouting system that will allow us to pick up these young, talented players so that we can bring them in and develop them even further. They will eventually be first team stars and by taking this new approach we will be able to invest our money in bigger named players who will make the starting 11. But, we need time and we need you to help us get there and be patient with us".

The General has hinted at such a thing in the past but employing McLeish completely blows the philosophy out of the water IMO. We need to look for someone who can buy into the plan. I would even go as far as allowing a man to come in and allow him to name the coaches and scouts that he wishes to work with. If that means that the likes of Kevin MacDonald and Sid Cowans are released then so be it. I just want us to have a plan and to stick to it. To go from Martinez to McLeish is like going from a Poodle to a Rottweiler!

Thats a good post and yes steaknchips does make some good points generally.

[Zatman]

Our defence isnt as good as some are shouting about

we had Herd as MOTM playing RB

should probably read what you type before submitting

[Ads]

its catch 22. under houllier shocking defence but better style of football. under mcleish a absolute more solid look but poor football

Only the football hasn’t been poor. We created ten times the chances against the Wolves in that second half than we did in the entire previous 90 minutes of that awful defeat under Houllier against them last season.

[Villarocker]

Yes but you have to take into account resources Dem.

Houllier and McLeish had the same defenders to work with and look at the difference so far in what McLeish has got from them.

It is a different story going forward though, we lost our two creative players so you can't really compare our attacking play or style to under Houllier who had both of those players. If Houllier hadn't had Young and Downing then I think our style or attacking threat and the impact of Bent would have been seriously impacted.

It is an unfair comparison in my view.

I don't think it is too unfair to be honest.

Last season we had Downing and Young who contributed 14 goals and 20 assists between them in the league, from 72 appearances. Last season, N'Zogbia and Albrighton scored 14 and had 15 assists from 64 appearances. Not much difference considering Young took pens and the latter two made 8 appearances less!

Also, in the 2006/2007 season Gabby played right wing and scored 10 league goals and had 6 assists and that was playing alongside Luke Moore, Angel and Baros. If we give him a continual run of games in the right position I am sure he will make double figures and chip in with a fair share of assists, he already has 1 of each this season!

[TrentVilla]

If you think there isn't much difference between Young/Downing and Albrighton/N'Zogbia then we will have to agree to disagree and there is little point carrying on the debate beyond that because we will never agree on anything.

[macandally]

Our defence isnt as good as some are shouting about. 1st off we aint played anybody decent as of yet..Given was MOTM v Fulham, making at least 3 very good saves, so thankyou Shay for the clean sheet there..

Blackburn we allowed Pedersen to run from the midfield to head in from a cross and nobody picked him up.

Wolves, we had Herd as MOTM playing RB because he kept Jarvis out the game(one of Wolves main supply lines for goals)..

Its far too early to be shouting from the rooftops that we have a great defence..I do think Given is a huge improvement on an aging Friedel..But lets wait until we start playing the big boys, lets wait and see if the defence can handle when negativity creeps in, when we a lose a game or 2..Lets wait until injuries and suspensions kick in..

And I do agree with all those saying that they have a defensive set up just infront of them which also makes them look good...And at the same time its making our front line look average.

I will interested to see what the team do when we go a goal down..Because we will have to come out and play then, this will leave gaps...ATM McLeish has played a very careful game where he hasnt had to commit players going forward...

I tend to agree with you.

when we play a simple game of stopper we look ok, thats alright against the lesser teams.

When we play teams who have players who will move us around, thats when you will see the difference.

..not convinced we have anything other than a very average defence.

+ 1 to both of those posts.

[PieFacE]

McLeish was the wrong choice for manager from the start.

I think Randy has panicked big time. I think he watched us go so far under O'Neill's ownership and was relatively happy with where we were going. But, he then realised that we needed to play the kids a bit more because he cannot afford big wages for players to sit on their arses for 3 or 4 years.

So, he brought in a man with a plan to use his coaching skills to develop a brand of football that would help us progress. He probably had a vision to take us forward but the older players weren't really up for change that much and spat the dummy out. Eventually, they probably realised that they wouldn't be Premier League players for much longer unless they got their finger out and they started to play for him. Houllier probably realised they weren't good enough to play his style of footie and had plans in place to get rid asap so that he could bring in some footballing defenders. However, heart troubles flared up and out he goes.

Lerner then looks for someone with the same footballing philosophy who won't need mega millions to spend and Martinez was the target. However, he knocked us back and then the search began for an alternative. They panicked and thought they needed someone in sooner rather than later and so they went for the same cheap option who would work to the same kind of budget but unfortunately they chose a guy who was so overwhelmingly unliked that he will be too scared to pick the kids because this man will need results more than anything and, in his mind, his best chance of getting results will be by playing his most experienced players and being as solid as possible. It is understandable but not really what we want for the long term good of the club IMO.

Steaknchips has had a bit of a hammering on here lately but he has a very good point on certain things. We have fans who don't want us to buy our way to things. They say they don't want us to be some Arab Billionaire's play thing. Well, unless we do become one of those, the only way to challenge is with a different approach to what we have had for the last 5 years of Lerner's ownership.

We need to have a man in charge, with Houllier's type of vision of how the game can be played, and who will allow those youngsters a smooth progression through to the first team. To do this we need to be really patient and we need our owner to come out of the General's bunker and say something like "Look folks, we can't join them or beat them with my finances, so we are going to try a different approach. It may take a further 5 years or maybe even 10. You may see some midtable finishes and even a brush with relegation but it is all for the long term good of the club. We need to allow time for the development of our new coaches and a scouting system that will allow us to pick up these young, talented players so that we can bring them in and develop them even further. They will eventually be first team stars and by taking this new approach we will be able to invest our money in bigger named players who will make the starting 11. But, we need time and we need you to help us get there and be patient with us".

The General has hinted at such a thing in the past but employing McLeish completely blows the philosophy out of the water IMO. We need to look for someone who can buy into the plan. I would even go as far as allowing a man to come in and allow him to name the coaches and scouts that he wishes to work with. If that means that the likes of Kevin MacDonald and Sid Cowans are released then so be it. I just want us to have a plan and to stick to it. To go from Martinez to McLeish is like going from a Poodle to a Rottweiler!

Very good post.

[bred]

I rather like Rottweilers though.

[Big_John_10]

Houllier, a man who through coaching and dealing with young players can turn an average team into a top 4 team.

It's like reading the ramblings of a mad man.

Arsene wenger is twice the coach houllier will ever be, he's been able to attract top class young players into his team and he's failed to seriously challenge the big clubs with this approach. Most people in the game acknowledge he needs to spend money in order to do this.

The notion that someone as shit as houllier could turn us into a top 4 team simply from his coaching and working with young players is ridiculous and completely ignores everything that happened at the club last year.

[steve-67]

Given the shit we have put up with over the last 15 months, the in-fighting, the cold shoulder treatments handed out, a Rottweiler was exactly what we needed. Unfortunately, I wanted a Rottweiler who gets his team to play more attractive football though. McLeish will do for now. We needed stability and he's it. Nothing great, but he offers us stability.

[NowDoINotLikeThat]

Thing is you can tell McLeish is being mucked about with already.

Hes already ended up contradicting himself several times due to the clubs actions.

[steaknchips]

Houllier, a man who through coaching and dealing with young players can turn an average team into a top 4 team.

It's like reading the ramblings of a mad man.

Arsene wenger is twice the coach houllier will ever be, he's been able to attract top class young players into his team and he's failed to seriously challenge the big clubs with this approach. Most people in the game acknowledge he needs to spend money in order to do this.

The notion that someone as shit as houllier could turn us into a top 4 team simply from his coaching and working with young players is ridiculous and completely ignores everything that happened at the club last year.

Houllier would have been more clued up than Wenger on classy young players with potiential and their availability..Plus has just as much pulling power...He is very well regarded as a top coach on the continent.

If Houllier can help move France as a nation into the modern era with coaching, training, tactics, player developement etc and earn a recognision for this work....Why couldnt he do the same for a club like Villa?

And if young players can never be coached to become top 4 quality, where's the next generation of top 4 players coming from? Yes it is that simple and comes down to coaching..

Houllier has helped coach more players that have become top 4 material and world class, than any manger we have ever had in recent Premiership history..Yes he did have experience in this field..

But you are right...Because he never lowered his standards of a coach to fit in with MON''s players...It makes him a sh1t manager...errr NOT..Never lower your standards, despite whatever crap you have to work with.

Duverne and Houllier was a HUGE opportunity for this club and I would consider us lucky to have got them...And extremely UNLUCKY Houllier was not well enough to continue his work. Did you know that Lyon won the ligue title 7 years running with Duverne as fitness trainer? With the French press giving him huge credit in the process..Its only since he has departed that Lyon have started to slide.

Maybe we wouldnt have got into the top 4...But trying and having a system is better than just settling for mediocrity, where we know for SURE we wont ever get top 4..Take the chance or just plod along? Which would you prefer?

[holtelower]

Dont get me wrong, I liked Houllier - I met him on a few occasions, once for about 3hrs, and came across as a lovely guy.

But I am really getting sick of reading what he "would have done". Who knows what he would have done - he could have sold our entire playing staff for 300m - replaced them with 25 players that cost 500k and won the league and the cup. He could also have took us down to Division 2

No one will ever know.

He may have done x/y/z at other clubs and had all the coaching badges under the sun - that meant sod all to his time at Villa.

Scholari had everything, and won everything uder the sun, where did it get him at Chelsea. McLaren is one of the most decorated coaches in Europe, where did it get him with England ? , Fergusun had bugger all coaches badges - has it stopped him becoming a good manager ?.

So stop talking all this "he would have done this" "he was the best coach in europe" - because I heard it all before - dont the name Dr Josef Venglos mean anything to you.

What we can say is what he did when he was here. And the facts are this.

He took a team that finished 6 three times and appeared at Wembley twice three months previous, to near relegation

He destroyed team spirit, banishing players from the club, fighting with others, bad mouthing others.

He badmouthed the club - calling us a "team that should be around 12th"

He took the piss out of the club and fans by forfeiting the FA Cup - defending himself by saying "we could never win it, I have other things to think about, we have a game at Bolton to win - I know what I am doing" - only to then lose at Bolton !

He publically praised another club and its fans, and stated he wasnt bothered about losing to that club - again, taking the piss out of this club and its fans.

and many many more

SO STOP THIS "WE WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT" coz we will never know.

And how do you all know that it wasn't Houllier that was the "yes man" to faulkner, not McLeish.

How do you know that Faulkner didnt say "Thats your lot, you get sod all , play the kids" and Houllier said "OK Paul, will do" - and that McLeish , having been given the same speech hasnt said "No, I will play kids who are good enough, XYZ are not good enough, so I wont play them, I want players that are.

We dont know.

And only time will tell who is the better manager, but I know this, I am not going to judge it now, just because he has signed Alan Hutton and not Alain Huytan

houllier may have done well in the long run - the same as Venglos - but history and the stat books will show he was an absoulte farce of a manager - and that is FACT !

EDIT

Oh and I forgot - ifs buts and maybes if you all want them. What would have happened if he hadn't have had his heart scare - coz from what I can see, we were gone ! , it was only once he went we steered our way clear

Or is that just a coincidence that doesn't suit the argument of some on here

[NowDoINotLikeThat]

Agreed holtelower.

[Rob182]

But... imagine what he could have done

[CI]

Taken us down ?