rjshare Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Can someone tell me what it was that houllier was trying to do and why it was such a great thing? And is there actually any evidence to prove this great thing houllier was building or is it all based on steak and chips love for him and interviews he did years ago? Was he implementing new tactics? Well no he wasn't, MON in Pre season changed the formation and tried young in the hole, k mac continued with that and so did houllier. He stuck with it for over 20 games until we were in real trouble and then woke up. Also he refused to do anything about the defence. Now I'm now footballing genius like mr houllier but I would have thought building a new great style of football would require a certain amount of time solving obvious weaknesses which the great houllier failed to do. Was he trying to implement this new great style using youth? Well he played young players because he had to and dropped them pretty much as soon as the senior players returned. His style of football was pathetic, it was possession football in areas that weren't a danger to the opposition. His defence was set up in a shambolic way. He destroyed team spirit, any fight the team had to get back into games and was an embarrassment in the press and towards the fans. Now there are stats, facts, games and results to show all that so I frankly couldn't give a shit that houllier fan number 1 posts interviews from years ago or makes up his own bullshit. Houllier was one of the worst appointments this club ever made. I think you are looking at this through blinkers. We did try to keep the ball, it was so obviously different to what ONeill was doing that you couldnt possibly not notice it, unless you just didnt want to. The problem we had was the lack of technical ability in the squad, we couldnt play the passing game at a tempo that regularly opened up the opposition, which often meant we kept the ball but possession floundered. Now that we have returned to a UK thump it and chase philosophy, the players look happier and you no doubt will be much more pleased. surely the flip side to that is that if you have players that are adapted to playing a certain style, you use tactics that play to their strengths rather than deciding on tactics and then trying to force your players to fit your ideas? i cant see how the old wimbledon team would have marched through the divisions if they had tried to get a team of brickies and part timers to play like barcelona! MAYBE over the course of a few years houllier MAY have been able to change the squad and its style of play enough for his philosphy to acheive results, but he would never have had chance to prove it if he had got us relegated in the mean time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macandally Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Can someone tell me what it was that houllier was trying to do and why it was such a great thing? And is there actually any evidence to prove this great thing houllier was building or is it all based on steak and chips love for him and interviews he did years ago? Was he implementing new tactics? Well no he wasn't, MON in Pre season changed the formation and tried young in the hole, k mac continued with that and so did houllier. He stuck with it for over 20 games until we were in real trouble and then woke up. Also he refused to do anything about the defence. Now I'm now footballing genius like mr houllier but I would have thought building a new great style of football would require a certain amount of time solving obvious weaknesses which the great houllier failed to do. Was he trying to implement this new great style using youth? Well he played young players because he had to and dropped them pretty much as soon as the senior players returned. His style of football was pathetic, it was possession football in areas that weren't a danger to the opposition. His defence was set up in a shambolic way. He destroyed team spirit, any fight the team had to get back into games and was an embarrassment in the press and towards the fans. Now there are stats, facts, games and results to show all that so I frankly couldn't give a shit that houllier fan number 1 posts interviews from years ago or makes up his own bullshit. Houllier was one of the worst appointments this club ever made. I think you are looking at this through blinkers. We did try to keep the ball, it was so obviously different to what ONeill was doing that you couldnt possibly not notice it, unless you just didnt want to. The problem we had was the lack of technical ability in the squad, we couldnt play the passing game at a tempo that regularly opened up the opposition, which often meant we kept the ball but possession floundered. Now that we have returned to a UK thump it and chase philosophy, the players look happier and you no doubt will be much more pleased. surely the flip side to that is that if you have players that are adapted to playing a certain style, you use tactics that play to their strengths rather than deciding on tactics and then trying to force your players to fit your ideas? i cant see how the old wimbledon team would have marched through the divisions if they had tried to get a team of brickies and part timers to play like barcelona! MAYBE over the course of a few years houllier MAY have been able to change the squad and its style of play enough for his philosphy to acheive results, but he would never have had chance to prove it if he had got us relegated in the mean time. You are right, maybe trying to conduct a revolution not an evolution is what caused so much angst. That said, I have absoutely no doubt whatsoever that the club would have been much more competitive with a better style of football in 5 years time than it will now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted September 1, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2011 surely the flip side to that is that if you have players that are adapted to playing a certain style, you use tactics that play to their strengths rather than deciding on tactics and then trying to force your players to fit your ideas? i cant see how the old wimbledon team would have marched through the divisions if they had tried to get a team of brickies and part timers to play like barcelona! MAYBE over the course of a few years houllier MAY have been able to change the squad and its style of play enough for his philosphy to acheive results, but he would never have had chance to prove it if he had got us relegated in the mean time. It's a balancing act, definitely. But it can and has been done. I'm sure I mentioned the A-League club's Brisbane Roar manager before regardling this. Long story short: Last in his first year in charge, senior loved players slated him, many of the players wouldn't play for him. Second year they got booted and he got in a bunch of nobodies who could play the way he wanted. They ended up Premiers and (equivalent of) Cup winners, setting a league record for the most number of games without loss. Now the A-League is hardly the Premier League (no relegation for starters), but he did it by getting players that could play better football and would work with him rather than "named" existing players that couldn't (or wouldn't). I believe Houllier was trying to do the same but I agree with those who say "too much too soon". That said, the hard yards of last season would have hopefully paved the way for a better one this season. Alas, we will never know and we are now back where we started. We will be solid. We will be hard to beat. And we will be mid-table. Always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Setting your team up the same for over 20 games regardless of results is not the sign of a tactical genius. Switching back when the threat of relegation was becoming too real shows what a shit job he was doing. Refusing to work on the teams biggest weakness is not the sign of a man who has a great master plan. Destroying any fighting spirit the team had is not the sign of a great man manager. The whole argument for houllier is based around a few peoples delusional belief that they understand football better than those who weren't happy losing and being in a relegation battle. It's ridiculous and I'm just so happy that I can read these delusional posts with a smile on my face because that stupid word removed isn't in charge anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macandally Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Setting your team up the same for over 20 games regardless of results is not the sign of a tactical genius. Switching back when the threat of relegation was becoming too real shows what a shit job he was doing. Refusing to work on the teams biggest weakness is not the sign of a man who has a great master plan. Destroying any fighting spirit the team had is not the sign of a great man manager. The whole argument for houllier is based around a few peoples delusional belief that they understand football better than those who weren't happy losing and being in a relegation battle. It's ridiculous and I'm just so happy that I can read these delusional posts with a smile on my face because that stupid word removed isn't in charge anymore. ONeill had the players working pretty much a three day week, where the reward for results was extra days off. Houllier introduced a revised training program which was focused on fitness and technical development. Due to the state of the squad he introduced morning and afternoon training in order to build up fitness (remember how we conceded late goals under ONeill??) Houllier took what equated to a Sunday League training regime and tried to introduce modern practices to improve both the technical ability and performance levels of the team. The squad obviously didnt like that, peferring the stupidly large wages and part time existance to working hard to become a team capable of challenging the top four. That is player power and that is ONeills legacy. He brought us top 6, but at what price? The delusions are yours John, as per usual, you see what suits you and there is no doubt to your feelings towards Houllier. Unfortunately, you are symptomatic of modern culture where everything has to NOW, NOW, NOW. The fact you cannot see where Houlliers approach could have taken us does not surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Good post above.. Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Good post above.. Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service.. If you replace '5' with '1' it'd make perfect sense, judging on the actual facts of his reign, rather than on utopic fan visions of grandeur. The club saw that and kicked him out even though the doctors gave him a pass for his medical condition. He must thank GMac for steering the ship well in the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 1, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 1, 2011 The club saw that and kicked him out even though the doctors gave him a pass for his medical condition. He must thank GMac for steering the ship well in the end of the season. People moaned about MON leaving the way he did (with some justification) but I've seen very little comment on the idea that Houllier wasn't fit to continue in his post but we had to get rid of him (at a huge cost) rather than him retiring due to ill health like most people would do. We should have put him on statutory sick pay to prove the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macandally Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Good post above.. Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service.. If you replace '5' with '1' it'd make perfect sense, judging on the actual facts of his reign, rather than on utopic fan visions of grandeur. The club saw that and kicked him out even though the doctors gave him a pass for his medical condition. He must thank GMac for steering the ship well in the end of the season. Yep, because he didnt deliver results in 10 minutes, he must be shit. I give up, its like trying to plait fog. Everybody wants everything immediately. It took Barcelona 20 years to build what they now have. We dont have the money like City to expedite that process, so we have to build slowly but with a clear vision of how we want to be. You mate have now got what you and people who cannot be bothered to wait deserve. Football dross from a second rate manager, enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Good post above.. Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service.. If you replace '5' with '1' it'd make perfect sense, judging on the actual facts of his reign, rather than on utopic fan visions of grandeur. The club saw that and kicked him out even though the doctors gave him a pass for his medical condition. He must thank GMac for steering the ship well in the end of the season. Well I wouldnt worry mate because we now have a 2 star manager that can deliver a 2 star service..Dunne and co' are at his level and happy as punch, whilst Bent, N'Zogbia, Albrighton, Bannan and Clark(the 5 stars) are unhappy at the standards of the toilets and dirty sheets. Watch this space because like Young,Makoun and Downing the 5 star employers will soon be looking to join a hotel that understands they offer a 5 star service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Well I wouldnt worry mate because we now have a 2 star manager that can deliver a 2 star service..Dunne and co' are at his level and happy as punch, whilst Bent, N'Zogbia, Albrighton, Bannan and Clark(the 5 stars) are unhappy at the standards of the toilets and dirty sheets. Watch this space because like Young,Makoun and Downing the 5 star employers will soon be looking to join a hotel that understands they offer a 5 star service. FWIW I agree with this wholeheartedly ( apart from Makoun being 5 star ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overdubber Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Hotels and football teams? Comparisons like fish and bicycles..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Unfortunately, you are symptomatic of modern culture where everything has to NOW, NOW, NOW. The fact you cannot see where Houlliers approach could have taken us does not surprise me. Actually I've got no problems with allowing a manager time to build something. The thing is just giving a manager time doesn't guarantee success. Giving the wrong manager time will lead to nothing but trouble and there is no doubt in my mind that houllier was the wrong manager. His style of football was not effective, it didn't work. You can bang on all you want that it would have in the long term but there's nothing to prove that. Just you and the football manager crew repeating your delusional ideas. As I say he showed a complete lack of tactical skill, complete lack of man management skills, terrible pr skills and through his own arrogance and incompetence lost the fans early on. Still excuses get made for what was an awlful performance from an awlful manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Good post above.. Houllier is like a 5 star hotelier going to run a 2 star hotel..He has the 5 star standards and can deliver the 5 star service...But unfortunately the old existing staff were too set in their ways of not cleaning the toilets properly or changing sheets properly...Yet Houllier could train the new recruits and young college staff how to change the sheets and clean the toilets but the old timers could never grasp it.. And unfortunately the 5 star Hotelier was never going to drop his standards and say its ok to not clean toilets or change sheets properly..He would continue with his standards and drill it into the old staff that he wants a 5 star service.. Gotta love the irony of all the analogies you could've chosen with which to equate Houllier, you went for one that includes the word 'toilet' three times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu_The_Villan Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I do think Houllier would make a good hotellier actually. Even his name is made for the job. Houllier the Hotellier. Like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Didnt Eck get 3 results off Houllier last season at sha when Houllier had a lot better players at his disposal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I was never very keen on Houllier at all but then I was really angry with MON for walking out on us as he did... This is mainly his mess, although his bosses should never have let him have so much control, McLeish is having to sort out. I therefore was prepared to give GH his chance...the football was better to watch but our defence was a shambles as was the dressing room it would appear. He signed Bent so Kudos for that. I would never of wished anything bad on him and I am thankful to Gary Mac because he did instill some bite in the team at the end of the season. Good job! However McLeish has in 3 games sorted out the defence, cut the wage bill dramatically and it would appear sorted out the dressing room. He's also making us a more media friendly club because he knows what's required... he knows they need to be fed titbits of info to keep them happy.... He's liked & respected by journos it would seem. My only gripe is that he's not going to stand on the touchline too often, like he did at Fulham and call our attacking players back from..... well attacking ..late on in the 2nd half. I know he needed to make sure we didn't lose but I want to see our front players attack the opposition and scoring goals. However he'll need some time I suppose to acheive this, so he has my full support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Didnt Eck get 3 results off Houllier last season at sha when Houllier had a lot better players at his disposal Correct, and this time last year we were beating off the the likes of Crawley Town to sign Pires, now we're getting proper PL players like Jenas. The club is now in safer hands IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Didnt Eck get 3 results off Houllier last season at sha when Houllier had a lot better players at his disposal Correct, and this time last year we were beating off the the likes of Crawley Town to sign Pires, now we're getting proper PL players like Jenas. The club is now in safer hands IMHO Whilst I agree the Club is in safer hands now, that's a bit unfair considering he pulled off the best transfer in our recent history with Darren Bent. Getting Kyle Walker in on loan was a smart piece of business as well - I'm sure he would've bought him if that option was there. Houllier would not have been successful here though, no matter how long he was given to implement his methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Bent ok, albeit I'm sure any manager armed with £24m would have landed DB9 Kyle Walker, i'm not convinced about him Then there's the debacle of Pires & Bradley, the £6m wasted on Makoun and the near misses that were Omar Cummings, & Fofana. Layer on top of that the bizarre behaviour, PR gaffes etc. and I'm sleeping easier now we have Big Eck driving the bus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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