CI Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I love the myth that is "Houlliers pretty football", I must have missed that part of last season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Albrighton was a threat on the right flank, while the central midfield pairing of Bannan and Jonathan Hogg, the latter making his league debut, showed plenty of youthful zest. Young had a half-volley saved by Edwin van der Sar and Downing saw a shot deflected narrowly wide off Ferdinand as the home side sensed United's fragility. Not even a half-time teamtalk from Ferguson inspired United to positive action and they looked increasingly vulnerable after the break. Albrighton sent a far post shot wide as Villa pressed and he then headed an inviting Downing cross across goal and wide. A fleet-footed Villa full of energy and verve were piling on the pressure and United were rescued by the woodwork when Downing sent in another threatening ball from the left and Collins rose highest to plant a header against the crossbar. United were rocking and when the ball broke loose after a Vidic tackle on Young, Agbonlahor crashed a shot off the United post. Villa were finally rewarded when a counter-attack ended with Brown felling Young, who picked himself up to score emphatically from the spot. And it got even better for the home side after Macheda gave the ball away and a swift and clinical Villa break ended with Albrighton slotting in Downing's perfect cross to the far post. But United are renowned for their ability to keep fighting until the final whistle and Macheda drilled in an 18-yard shot to give them a renewed belief. When Vidic met a Nani cross at the far post and nodded in an angle header, the visitors suddenly felt victory was within reach. Villa held on for a point but a home league win over United, last achieved in 1995, continues to elude them. We could have gone 4/5 nil up against Man United that day...Crap teams dont do that sort of thing to an unbeaten United side high on confidence. We destroyed them for 80mins of the game...Signs were there that day that Villa can be a great side and set up under Houllier. Things to note were the movement, vision and creative flair in our side that had the know how to turn a United defence upside down...I know our lack of experience let Man U back in the game with 10mins to go...But there was enough positives to take from that game to see we can build on this system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Houllier, all day long. Anyone but what we have now, still cant get over it..sad times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Albrighton was a threat on the right flank, while the central midfield pairing of Bannan and Jonathan Hogg, the latter making his league debut, showed plenty of youthful zest. Young had a half-volley saved by Edwin van der Sar and Downing saw a shot deflected narrowly wide off Ferdinand as the home side sensed United's fragility. Not even a half-time teamtalk from Ferguson inspired United to positive action and they looked increasingly vulnerable after the break. Albrighton sent a far post shot wide as Villa pressed and he then headed an inviting Downing cross across goal and wide. A fleet-footed Villa full of energy and verve were piling on the pressure and United were rescued by the woodwork when Downing sent in another threatening ball from the left and Collins rose highest to plant a header against the crossbar. United were rocking and when the ball broke loose after a Vidic tackle on Young, Agbonlahor crashed a shot off the United post. Villa were finally rewarded when a counter-attack ended with Brown felling Young, who picked himself up to score emphatically from the spot. And it got even better for the home side after Macheda gave the ball away and a swift and clinical Villa break ended with Albrighton slotting in Downing's perfect cross to the far post. But United are renowned for their ability to keep fighting until the final whistle and Macheda drilled in an 18-yard shot to give them a renewed belief. When Vidic met a Nani cross at the far post and nodded in an angle header, the visitors suddenly felt victory was within reach. Villa held on for a point but a home league win over United, last achieved in 1995, continues to elude them. We could have gone 4/5 nil up against Man United that day...Crap teams dont do that sort of thing to an unbeaten United side high on confidence. We destroyed them for 80mins of the game...Signs were there that day that Villa can be a great side and set up under Houllier. Things to note were the movement, vision and creative flair in our side that had the know how to turn a United defence upside down...I know our lack of experience let Man U back in the game with 10mins to go...But there was enough positives to take from that game to see we can build on this system. Weren't it the season United had their worst ever away record? By the way, do you think Wolves are a 9.5 team???? they beat Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City. Clearly, you don't do that unless you're an amazingly good team with a brilliant manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Fair point AVFC, We too beat those teams along with Arsenal too..But when casting a judgement on how a manager sets his teams up, I would like watch the value of the play involved.. Our display was somewhat, us coming out and taking the game to these teams it wasnt good luck v United and co', yet good honest football with ctreative flair and movement.There were signs of cleverness in the play..If anything most of last season, bad luck played its part in alot of late goals being conceded etc and that slight lack of experience. We are talking about a manager that despite all the sh1t he was dealt with, still came out and put on a display of creative football, no matter whom the playing personel were...Whether it was Herd at CB or Lichaj bossing Bale at RB..You could see the signs..You could see that with a little tweak in the Summer and that the youth would be a year older and wiser, the new season did look promising.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I believe there was promise and a chance of good results for this season but then I also know that this team wasn't anywhere near capable of producing the sort of results you believe they were. It's okay doing it one week or even two but over a 38 game season, they aren't good enough to produce results consistently. It's why we see plenty cup shocks, doesn't make them a team therefore capable of somehow steamrolling the rest of English football but they simply played well on that day, while the opposition were pretty poor for their standards. Yeah, we finished the season strongly but the main reason for that was the fact we were injury free and it allowed us to play the experience players. You talk about these youngsters and Houllier promise but when it came down to it, Houllier like any other manager reverted to the experience. Friedel, Walker (only one) Dunne, Collins, L.Young, Young, Downing, Coker, Petrov, Gabby/Heskey, Bent. That was the team that picked us vital wins vs Newcastle and West Ham which secured our status in the Premiership. Houllier didn't pick the likes of Herd at CB through choice that Herd deserved to be given a chance, it was through lack of fit players. We picked up 15 points from our last 8 games, our best run of form all season. Which also came at the time we picked the most experience line up of players we had available. It wasn't a co-incidence. They showed promise the younger players but they are promising in isolation, had we bunched them all together (which we were forced to do for long periods of the same, which saw us drop into the bottom 3) then IMO, we would have been relegated. I was thinking it was possibly promising this season because if we could remain injury free, he showed as a manager that he can get good results for us and generally, we were keeping the ball better. I weren't wanting him to be manager because he brings through the youth. You talk about Houllier as the guy who can bring through this youth etc....but when it came to it, he used the experience players to perform when it was needed to stay up in the league as basically, the kids as a group, weren't upto that task while the seniors were injured. We beat Man City, we beat Liverpool, we beat Arsenal. However, the teams we put out for those games were on the whole, very experienced. Albrighton & Clark vs City, the rest were Cuellar/Collins/Dunne/Petrov/Downing/Young/Bent/Gabby etc... vs Liverpool and Arsenal, we had L.Young, Dunne, Collins, Petrov, Coker, Young, Downing, Bent etc....all vitally experienced players. This idea that you throw the likes of Baker/Clark/Delph/Bannan/Gardner/Albrighton etc..all into the same team and we'll suddenly become one of the best teams in England is laughable and based on nothing apart from 1/2 good performances last season involving younger players. What about the other results that saw us in the relegation zone, is that not evidence that plenty of younger players within the same team simply doesn't work, as 1. they aren't good enough to play consistently well over a course of a season and 2. they don't have the experience which can cost serious points. If it weren't for the experienced players you know seem to dismiss, we may not even be in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I hope Eck has taken his factor 50 to Marbella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macandally Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I hope Eck has taken his factor 50 to Marbella I hope he hasnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I cant imagine he tans that well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 We should have kept Houllier. He might have decided to sort the defence out (although not his problem) by 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Must admit I'm really missing the excitement and sleepless nights that is Zonal Marking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisNichollsToe Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Must admit I'm really missing the excitement and sleepless nights that is Zonal Marking That was good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VamosMiAstonVilla Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Nothing wrong with zonal marking, typically British to knock it though. Don't believe everything the ex-player pundits tell you on sky sports, most are dinosaurs that are full of shiit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted September 3, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2011 Interesting comments about "Zonal Marking". If I remember correctly, Houllier said that he changed nothing with the defense - which means we were "Zonal Marking" under MON. So what changed? Houllier urged his midfield up the field, including overlapping fullbacks. This left Dunne and Collins without their usual protection of 2 deep central midfielders, 2 fullbacks left and right (not up the field) and a defensive position somewhere between our area and halfway. They were found wanting (especially Collins) because, well, they aren't very good. Eck has returned to form. We sit deeper. 2 defensive midfielders sit on our defenders shoulders. Lo and Behold! They remember how to defend again. So was the problem Houlliers style? Nope. The problem was that Houllier thought he had 2 good central defenders.... ... and he was wrong. A return to 2 deep central defenders (NRC, Petrov) in the second half of the season stemmed the flow. But by this stage both Dunne and Collins had thrown their rattle out of the pram and a deep central midfield meant we had NO penetration through the middle (hence trying to put Ashley Young in the hole). I would have dearly liked to have seen Houllier source some decent centre halves from abroad in the summer.... ... but even if he was still in charge, I don't know if we would have had the money for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoD Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Interesting comments about "Zonal Marking". If I remember correctly, Houllier said that he changed nothing with the defense - which means we were "Zonal Marking" under MON. So what changed? Houllier urged his midfield up the field, including overlapping fullbacks. This left Dunne and Collins without their usual protection of 2 deep central midfielders, 2 fullbacks left and right (not up the field) and a defensive position somewhere between our area and halfway. But under MON we always had 4 people strong in the air defensively (usually Cuellar, Dunne, collins and carew/Heskey). It means that each 'zone' is well protected. Also we did a lot of set piece practice so the team was confident of their roles. Under Houllier we were just at defending set pieces. If you look at the highlights from last year you will see that we conceded the same type of goals from set pieces over and over again. We conceded a ridiculous % of goals from set pieces and if you remove them our defence wasn't much worse then the previous season. They were found wanting (especially Collins) because, well, they aren't very good. Eck has returned to form. We sit deeper. 2 defensive midfielders sit on our defenders shoulders. Lo and Behold! They remember how to defend again. So was the problem Houlliers style? Nope. The problem was that Houllier thought he had 2 good central defenders.... ... and he was wrong. A return to 2 deep central defenders (NRC, Petrov) in the second half of the season stemmed the flow. But by this stage both Dunne and Collins had thrown their rattle out of the pram and a deep central midfield meant we had NO penetration through the middle (hence trying to put Ashley Young in the hole). I would have dearly liked to have seen Houllier source some decent centre halves from abroad in the summer.... ... but even if he was still in charge, I don't know if we would have had the money for them. this is just a load of crap. Both Dunne and Collins are good defenders and outside the top 6 and stoke either one of them would walk into a starting position. It turns out that when a team is organised in defence and the players know their roles they will concede less goals. During the middle of last season the team looked completely clueless and Houllier blamed everyone but himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRickyRun Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Interesting comments about "Zonal Marking". If I remember correctly, Houllier said that he changed nothing with the defense - which means we were "Zonal Marking" under MON. So what changed? Houllier urged his midfield up the field, including overlapping fullbacks. This left Dunne and Collins without their usual protection of 2 deep central midfielders, 2 fullbacks left and right (not up the field) and a defensive position somewhere between our area and halfway. They were found wanting (especially Collins) because, well, they aren't very good. Eck has returned to form. We sit deeper. 2 defensive midfielders sit on our defenders shoulders. Lo and Behold! They remember how to defend again. So was the problem Houlliers style? Nope. The problem was that Houllier thought he had 2 good central defenders.... ... and he was wrong. A return to 2 deep central defenders (NRC, Petrov) in the second half of the season stemmed the flow. But by this stage both Dunne and Collins had thrown their rattle out of the pram and a deep central midfield meant we had NO penetration through the middle (hence trying to put Ashley Young in the hole). I would have dearly liked to have seen Houllier source some decent centre halves from abroad in the summer.... ... but even if he was still in charge, I don't know if we would have had the money for them. What a crock. Having overlapping fullbacks and attacking midfielders does not affect defending from set pieces which was very good under O'Neill but shockingly bad under Houllier. Also, how can you accurately judge the relative protection offered to the centre backs from watching games on TV? TV only follows the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 its catch 22. under houllier shocking defence but better style of football. under mcleish a absolute more solid look but poor football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 3, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 3, 2011 Yes but you have to take into account resources Dem. Houllier and McLeish had the same defenders to work with and look at the difference so far in what McLeish has got from them. It is a different story going forward though, we lost our two creative players so you can't really compare our attacking play or style to under Houllier who had both of those players. If Houllier hadn't had Young and Downing then I think our style or attacking threat and the impact of Bent would have been seriously impacted. It is an unfair comparison in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Our defence isnt as good as some are shouting about. 1st off we aint played anybody decent as of yet..Given was MOTM v Fulham, making at least 3 very good saves, so thankyou Shay for the clean sheet there.. Blackburn we allowed Pedersen to run from the midfield to head in from a cross and nobody picked him up. Wolves, we had Herd as MOTM playing RB because he kept Jarvis out the game(one of Wolves main supply lines for goals).. Its far too early to be shouting from the rooftops that we have a great defence..I do think Given is a huge improvement on an aging Friedel..But lets wait until we start playing the big boys, lets wait and see if the defence can handle when negativity creeps in, when we a lose a game or 2..Lets wait until injuries and suspensions kick in.. And I do agree with all those saying that they have a defensive set up just infront of them which also makes them look good...And at the same time its making our front line look average. I will interested to see what the team do when we go a goal down..Because we will have to come out and play then, this will leave gaps...ATM McLeish has played a very careful game where he hasnt had to commit players going forward... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Our defence isnt as good as some are shouting about. 1st off we aint played anybody decent as of yet..Given was MOTM v Fulham, making at least 3 very good saves, so thankyou Shay for the clean sheet there.. Blackburn we allowed Pedersen to run from the midfield to head in from a cross and nobody picked him up. Wolves, we had Herd as MOTM playing RB because he kept Jarvis out the game(one of Wolves main supply lines for goals).. Its far too early to be shouting from the rooftops that we have a great defence..I do think Given is a huge improvement on an aging Friedel..But lets wait until we start playing the big boys, lets wait and see if the defence can handle when negativity creeps in, when we a lose a game or 2..Lets wait until injuries and suspensions kick in.. And I do agree with all those saying that they have a defensive set up just infront of them which also makes them look good...And at the same time its making our front line look average. I will interested to see what the team do when we go a goal down..Because we will have to come out and play then, this will leave gaps...ATM McLeish has played a very careful game where he hasnt had to commit players going forward... I tend to agree with you. when we play a simple game of stopper we look ok, thats alright against the lesser teams. When we play teams who have players who will move us around, thats when you will see the difference. ..not convinced we have anything other than a very average defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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