KentVillan Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: Not sure about ‘WatkIngs’, just don’t seem to be linking up with each other too well, or very often. Partnerships take a while to gel. I’d rather we gave it a chance before deciding it doesn’t work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 42 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's a base to anything we try to do - there are then options around that base, but I struggle to see any way that we can move away from the base successfully. That base is a keeper, at least two CB's, three midfielders and a couple of full backs. ---------------------------------XXXXXX------------------------------ XXXXX---------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------XXXXXX -------------------------------XXXXXXX---------------------------- --------------------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------------------- I think you can line the midfield up in this way also: ---------------------------------XXXXXX------------------------------ XXXXX---------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------XXXXXX --------------------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------------------- ------------------------------XXXXXXX----------------------------- You can then add an extra CB, or Wingers and one or two up top - but you've only got three positions to play with. There are plenty of questions within the base - Hause or Tuanzebe as the extra CB, Ings or Watkins if you're only going with one up front, whether Buendia can play in midfield and if he can whether it means we have to play two holding midfielders behind him (which means dropping McGinn for Nakamba), but I think the base as a starting shape is set. I think we'll alternate between having three CB's and two up top and having two CB's, one striker and wingers - I think we can afford to be quite fluid in terms of how we play and I think we can adjust it during games. For me at the moment if everyone was fit, with three at the back I'd go: -----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- ----------Tuanzebe----------Konsa------------Mings--------------- Cash-----------------------------Luiz----------------------------Targett --------------------McGinn-------------Sanson------------------------- ----------------------Ings---------------Watkins------------------------- Although it'd be interesting to see: -----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- ----------Tuanzebe----------Konsa------------Mings--------------- Cash---------------Nakamba------------Luiz----------------Targett ---------------------------------Buendia------------------------------------- ----------------------Ings---------------Watkins-------------------------- And with four at the back: ----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- Cash--------------Konsa-----------------Mings-------------Targett -------------------------------------Luiz---------------------------------------- -----------------------McGinn-------------Sanson----------------------- Buendia-------------------------------------------------------------Bailey ---------------------------------Watkins------------------------------------- There are plenty of options and we have a load of flexibility - but I think we need to be careful about pushing square pegs into round holes in an effort to get all the attacking names into the team at the same time. I like this squad, I think we've got good cover for injuries and suspensions and flexibility in the way we play - there are areas we can strengthen, but it's the best squad we've had in some time. I totally agree with that. Where I differ from you slightly, I am not as convinced about Luiz as you are.....He is in all your midfield permutations. I think his passing is good, his ability to hold the line is not, he was out muscled a few times on Sunday and lost territory as a result of it. Not saying, He is bad, just not as convinced....still lightweight for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 42 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Partnerships take a while to gel. I’d rather we gave it a chance before deciding it doesn’t work. Which is why i wrote ‘not sure’ and ‘seem’, sometimes partnerships take a while to click, sometimes they click instantly and sometimes they just don’t click, hopefully it’s not the latter but results thus far seem to be leaning that way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: Not sure about ‘WatkIngs’, just don’t seem to be linking up with each other too well, or very often. How many teams try to play two strikers anymore? My thought is that there's a reason most teams play 1 up front, because 5-3-2 doesnt work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, villa89 said: How many teams try to play two strikers anymore? My thought is that there's a reason most teams play 1 up front, because 5-3-2 doesnt work. Had a deeper look and not a lot and its mostly shite teams. The only teams that primarily played with two strikes last season were Newcastle with Wilson and Joelinton(I assume ASM slotted in when he wasn't injured), Palace with Benteke and Zaha, Southampton with Ings and Che Adams, Burnley with Matej Vydra and Chris Wood and Sheffield United with McGoldrick and Burke. Edited October 4, 2021 by Laughable Chimp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Had a deeper look and not a lot and its mostly shite teams. The only teams that primarily played with two strikes last season were Newcastle with Wilson and Joelinton(I assume ASM slotted in when he wasn't injured), Palace with Benteke and Zaha, Southampton with Ings and Che Adams, Burnley with Matej Vydra and Chris Wood and Sheffield United with McGoldrick and Burke. More teams than I expected but surely palace Zaha is on the wing? He's not really a striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, villa89 said: More teams than I expected but surely palace Zaha is on the wing? He's not really a striker. Apparently not. Their most used starting formation last season by far was a 4-4-2 with usually Benteke playing alongside Zaha up front. Townsend and Eze on the wings. Edited October 4, 2021 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 The Watkins goal vs Spurs was the first one the 3-5-2 has produced from the first 11 picked by the manager to start the game. Every other goal has come after Dean has made multiple changes to shape and personnel. We just don't have the players to use it effectively over anything more than a small run of games. Targett will never be a wing back. Lost count of how many attacks he wasted because if he can't blast a low/hard cross through the box he has no plan "B". Hopefully after the international break we return with some version of a 4-3-3 . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said: Apparently not. Their most used starting formation last season by far was a 4-4-2 with usually Benteke playing alongside Zaha up front. Townsend and Eze on the wings. I'm sure last season, Zaha was playing up front, not sure for how long, but I remember it being regularly mentioned by commentators and on FPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 3 hours ago, tomav84 said: the attacking talent of buendia who has yet to really perform for us yet, the inconsistent traore and a 19 year old kid who's played just a few mins of PL football?? those were all we had on the bench from an attacking perspective don't get me wrong, not writing buendia off and i'm very fond of traore but the team we had out yesterday caused utd and chelsea all sorts of problems. i didn't expect any changes “Created all sorts of problems” Yet we only scored one goal in those games and only one yesterday. We have two very good attackers in Watkins and Ings yet they have notched only one goal between them in four games using this system. The only anomaly is Everton which you could put down to the impact from Bailey as we were again looking lacklustre from an attacking perspective until he came on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Rightdm00 said: The Watkins goal vs Spurs was the first one the 3-5-2 has produced from the first 11 picked by the manager to start the game. Every other goal has come after Dean has made multiple changes to shape and personnel. We just don't have the players to use it effectively over anything more than a small run of games. Targett will never be a wing back. Lost count of how many attacks he wasted because if he can't blast a low/hard cross through the box he has no plan "B". Hopefully after the international break we return with some version of a 4-3-3 . It’s a bit of an over-simplified way of looking at it though, we should have scored 2 or 3 at Chelsea, we should have scored a couple at United before going a goal up…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaFaninLondon Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, TRO said: It depends what is meant by "best" We can't just rely on set pieces anymore than rely on just the odd moment in a game to score. Playing 2 strikers can work and has worked in the past, its about getting a telepathy or cohesive understanding between 2 players......over too BMH Salah and Mane have it despite them not being quintessential No9's of strikers.......but they know how to find each other and one on their own may not work. I still think football is about little partnerships, to do one,two's or play each other in. I don't think Ollie and Danny are as big an issue as what lies elsewhere....having said that, we do need to get them playing together......having said that both was involved in the build up to our goal on sunday. Liverpool still play a front three though, Salah and Mane are never both occupying the central position, they interchange throughout the game. I agree that we shouldn't just play one way, set pieces can be a great source of goals, but we seem to have gone overboard on it. I was at the match yesterday and it just bored me watching us take ages to take a long throw every time and it was always ineffective anyway. Even if we lose I actually want to enjoy watching us play and yesterday I didn't, and that wasn't just down to individual performances it was also down to tactics and the way we approached the game. Maybe he'll find a way to get Ings and Watkins working, but he's not helping himself by leaving his creative players on the bench every game. We lost a huge player in the summer, we signed some very good individual players that we spent a good deal of money on and he hasn't managed to integrate any of them into the team effectively. He's got to start getting Buendia into the team, Traore too, sadly Bailey has been non-stop injured but hopefully he'll be back for Wolves. We need players who can take the ball and make things happen. There's lots of energy in the middle and out wide but not enough quality, that's what I'm seeing anyway. Edited October 4, 2021 by VillaFaninLondon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 It now striked me what I don't quite like with the 3-5-2, and it's that we dont have any wingers, as long as I have followed Villa we have always had exciting speedy or tricky wingers, either in a 4-4-2 or in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. We tried three up front with Yorke, Milosevic and Collymore, without wingers, and it didn't work. Perahps if we play this formation and we play Bailey on the left instead of Targett and Traoré on the right instead of Cash it would do, it would be gung-ho, but it would do for me. I don't quite like us when we have full backs as our main threat on the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismail-villa Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 I think against teams that we're expected to be on the front foot against, I'd like to see a 4-3-3. Bailey left, Buendia right. Ings playing just a bit deeper than Watkins but both still central, McGinn and Luiz the midfield two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulberto21 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Dean Smith out!!!! We need some of this..... I still can't believe we lost after those genius instructions. Might actually be the turning point of that season. Pashun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 3 hours ago, ismail-villa said: I think against teams that we're expected to be on the front foot against, I'd like to see a 4-3-3. Bailey left, Buendia right. Ings playing just a bit deeper than Watkins but both still central, McGinn and Luiz the midfield two. You just described 4-4-1-1 not 4-3-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Emi Cash Konsa - Mings - Targett Mcginn Luiz Bailey Buendia Ings Watkins That's our best XI IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 There's nothing inherently wrong with a front 2, especially when it's two players like Watkins and Ings who are good at tracking back. Real Madrid won 2018 Champs League with a front 2, and Atletico Madrid won La Liga last season often playing a front 2 (including 3-5-2 at times). Formation is very rarely as big a deal as fans make out, anyway. What matters is how the individual players play within the system. 4-4-2 can be a very loose, attacking shape, or it can be a very tight defensive shape. Same for 5-3-2 / 3-5-2. Man Utd used to play a 4-4-2 which turned into 4-5-1 in defence, with Rooney or Tevez tucking back wide. Arguably that's similar to what we're asking our front 2 to do at the moment. FWIW I think we will switch tactics when Bailey is fully fit and starting games, but for now I understand why we've gone with a front 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCollins29 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 40 minutes ago, villa89 said: Emi Cash Konsa - Mings - Targett Mcginn Luiz Bailey Buendia Ings Watkins That's our best XI IMO. This but ings and watkins swap. You need a really instinctive finisher up top, which watkins isnt. I love him but ings is better finisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 5, 2021 Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2021 4 hours ago, Sulberto21 said: Dean Smith out!!!! We need some of this..... I still can't believe we lost after those genius instructions. Might actually be the turning point of that season. Pashun. Shortly after this he made a couple of substitutions that gave Leicester the title and relegated us - there should be a statue of him outside the King Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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