MWARLEY2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, Nicho said: I think our future lies in playing our best players at the same time. Which seems obvious but I’m not sure it is then our best formation. 4222 Defence Mcginn Luiz Buendia Bailey Watkins Ings Would be fun but we would be run through non stop by any team playing 3 in the middle. I think to play that formation we would need to drop McGinn and put Nakamba next to Luiz . Kind of shows why we might actually have needed a DM in the summer. Some games we can get away with it but if he wants two up top and to play two out of his best 3 wide players then we would need a top and i mean top quality Bissouma type to hold things steadier in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 The only way we could play 433 and get most of our best players on the pitch would be Martinez Cash Konsa Mings Targett Buendia Luiz McGinn Bailey Ings Watkins Bailey is scary good on the right cutting in like prime Robben so would allow Buendia to play him in from a little deeper . And Buemdia does have great pressing and passing stats.And we all know Watkins can play left of the front 3 . Theres 2 maybe 3 compromises to get them on the pitch but thats the only way we can get them all on the pitch together. Shows the difficult job Smith has to make the tough decisions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaFaninLondon Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said: The only way we could play 433 and get most of our best players on the pitch would be Martinez Cash Konsa Mings Targett Buendia Luiz McGinn Bailey Ings Watkins Bailey is scary good on the right cutting in like prime Robben so would allow Buendia to play him in from a little deeper . And Buemdia does have great pressing and passing stats.And we all know Watkins can play left of the front 3 . Theres 2 maybe 3 compromises to get them on the pitch but thats the only way we can get them all on the pitch together. Shows the difficult job Smith has to make the tough decisions. I really like that team. I think Buendia as an 8 would work as he has the work rate to play there, plus he could be more of a 10 when we have the ball. Ollie wide left would also work well if he played as an inside forward IMO but Smith specifically said he wouldn’t play him there, so either he changes his stance on that or has one of the strikers on the bench. Of course these aren’t easy decisions but the best managers make them and get the best out of a competitive squad. Given none of our big summer signings are shining for us currently (OK Bailey is injured but Ings and Buendia are playing well below what they are capable of), he clearly isn’t getting the best out of the talent at his disposal. Edited October 4, 2021 by VillaFaninLondon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 On 29/09/2021 at 07:29, Delphinho123 said: If Leon Bailey does play left wing back and plays well there then we have the makings of one hell of a team, we really do. A 3-5-2 with Bailey and Cash as the wing backs and Buendia playing just behind the striker is the stuff dreams are made of. not doubting your word....but players have to be achieving 8's not 7's and 6's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 21 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said: I really like that team. I think Buendia as an 8 would work as he has the work rate to play there, plus he could be more of a 10 when we have the ball. Ollie wide left would also work well if he played as an inside forward IMO but Smith specifically said he wouldn’t play him there, so either he changes his stance on that or has one of the strikers on the bench. Of course these aren’t easy decisions but the best managers make them and get the best out of a competitive squad. Given none of our big summer signings are shining for us currently (OK Bailey is injured but Ings and Buendia are playing well below what they are capable of), he clearly isn’t getting the best out of the talent at his disposal. Formations, will not bail any team out.....The individual players have to give good performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said: Guys, I have this crazy and wild formation we could try. Its called 4-4-2. Drop Hause and Ramsey for Buendia and Bailey/El Ghazi if he still ain't fit. but why drop Ramsey, he is a cigarette paper between him and McGinn and Luiz, in some games....it was Ramsey's tenacity that lead to the pass to Ings for our goal....you might be barking up the wrong tree. Hause has done no worse than the established CB's I accept its not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Not sure about ‘WatkIngs’, just don’t seem to be linking up with each other too well, or very often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, TRO said: but why drop Ramsey, he is a cigarette paper between him and McGinn and Luiz, in some games....it was Ramsey's tenacity that lead to the pass to Ings for our goal....you might be barking up the wrong tree. Hause has done no worse than the established CB's I accept its not easy. I know its harsh to drop the both of them. But surely we'd want to play both Bailey and Buendia in their best positions? And to do that, we have to drop one of the CMs and CBs. I like Hause but I'm not about to keep him over Mings and Konsa. And I've been one of Luiz's most ardent critic over the past 2 years, but even I can see he's been performing very well this season so I can't drop him. And I think Mcginn has been decent as well so far. That just leaves Ramsey as the odd one out. Perhaps I'm a bit harsh to exclude him over Mcginn, but eh I don't really mind that much either way Furthermore, the stats show we've been struggling to create in open play. We've had the joint second lowest amount of shots in open play according to understat only to Norwich. That strengthens the case that we should be playing with our most creative players which are the big name wingers we've purchased over the summer. Edit: I guess we could exclude one of the strikers instead. Again, don't really mind that much either way. Both alternatives are very reasonable. Edited October 4, 2021 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: I know its harsh to drop the both of them. But surely we'd want to play both Bailey and Buendia in their best positions? And to do that, we have to drop one of the CMs and CBs. I like Hause but I'm not about to keep him over Mings and Konsa. And I've been one of Luiz's most ardent critic over the past 2 years, but even I can see he's been performing very well this season so I can't drop him. And I think Mcginn has been decent as well so far. That just leaves Ramsey as the odd one out. Furthermore, the stats show we've been struggling to create in open play. We've had the joint second lowest amount of shots in open play according to understat only to Norwich. That strengthens the case that we should be playing with our most creative players which are the big name wingers we've purchased over the summer. I accept you argument....but IF we play those creative players, they have to create and we have to finish. I have seen instances in the past, where we load the team with creativity and it can create a paradox.....where the opposition nullify our threat, and it puts us on the back foot. I come back to my main point.....you have to win your individual battles to take control, when those battles have been won and the initiative has been gained, then you apply the creativity to score goals. Its a classic mistake to go all guns blazing and get caught on the counter....... We scored yesterday, so we could have won 0-1......we conceded 2 poor goals, ....I don't think its as simple as just not enough creativity....I think its many more things too. Edited October 4, 2021 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 I wasn't and continue to not be a fan of the 3-5-2 formation. I just don't think it works well at all. The old 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 works much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, tomav84 said: hindsight being a wonderful thing, how many thought when we saw an unchanged line up really thought "hmm...should have rotated this a bit" Me. Leaving out all that attacking talent is criminal imo. If we stick with that formation. What was the point in signing those players? It’s all very well saying we have a string bench but I would much rather see the best players starting rather than changing it up when not going our way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, TRO said: I accept you argument....but IF we play those creative players, they have to create and we have to finish. I have seen instances in the past, where we load the team with creativity and it can create a paradox.....where the opposition nullify our threat, and it puts us on the back foot. I come back to my main point.....you have to win your individual battles to take control, when those battles have been won and the initiative has been gained, then you apply the creativity to score goals. Its a classic mistake to go all guns blazing and get caught on the counter....... We scored yesterday, so we could have won 0-1......we conceded 2 poor goals, ....I don't think its as simple as just not enough creativity....I think its many more things too. I think one leads to the other. The correct formation for any particular game allows the talent in those players to be exploited to the maximum. Dean is playing the percentages alot this season with set pieces being the major part of our attacking strategy . I would say that getting Bailey onto the pitch and getting him the ball in the right places will obviously see an upturn in form of the attacking players. He is genuinely a game changer ala Son yesterday . Bit of chaos up front will drag defenders around and create more space for Watkings to capitalise on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said: I think one leads to the other. The correct formation for any particular game allows the talent in those players to be exploited to the maximum. Dean is playing the percentages alot this season with set pieces being the major part of our attacking strategy . I would say that getting Bailey onto the pitch and getting him the ball in the right places will obviously see an upturn in form of the attacking players. He is genuinely a game changer ala Son yesterday . Bit of chaos up front will drag defenders around and create more space for Watkings to capitalise on. Its a game relying on synergy, so it all links....sure. did you see Son against Arsenal?.....different player to the one against us, but he always seems to shine against us, that could open another debate. I think he is a wonderful player, but inconsistency can take him hostage too, like all great wide men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaFaninLondon Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, TRO said: Formations, will not bail any team out.....The individual players have to give good performances. But that’s just it, the current formation doesn’t get our best players out on the pitch so from an individual perspective we’re weaker. You can’t rely on set pieces to score goals. I personally don’t think playing 2 strikers works (none of the top teams play it), but even if Smith persists in it he has to get some creativity into that midfield. As someone said above, we’re the second lowest in the division for creating open play chances after Norwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, TRO said: Its a game relying on synergy, so it all links....sure. did you see Son against Arsenal?.....different player to the one against us, but he always seems to shine against us, that could open another debate. I think he is a wonderful player, but inconsistency can take him hostage too, like all great wide men. I agree. Son does seem to have a good game against us but he also has had good games against all the other teams over the last few seasons. What i am looking for this season is for form to be temporary but class permanent. Not 12 games of the team struggling to play the football it undoubtedly can but 1 or 2 bad games followed by 3 or 4 good. Lets see if we can bounce back quickly rather than dropping 10 yards against Wolves and trying to win ugly . Many teams have many players of the same kind of quality as us. Its now all about seeing if we can show more consistency than the majority of the others to drive us up the table. We have the talent in our squad now. No excuses. Over to Deano and his team to inspire them to greater heights Edited October 4, 2021 by MWARLEY2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, VillaFaninLondon said: But that’s just it, the current formation doesn’t get our best players out on the pitch so from an individual perspective we’re weaker. You can’t rely on set pieces to score goals. I personally don’t think playing 2 strikers works (none of the top teams play it), but even if Smith persists in it he has to get some creativity into that midfield. As someone said above, we’re the second lowest in the division for creating open play chances after Norwich. It depends what is meant by "best" We can't just rely on set pieces anymore than rely on just the odd moment in a game to score. Playing 2 strikers can work and has worked in the past, its about getting a telepathy or cohesive understanding between 2 players......over too BMH Salah and Mane have it despite them not being quintessential No9's of strikers.......but they know how to find each other and one on their own may not work. I still think football is about little partnerships, to do one,two's or play each other in. I don't think Ollie and Danny are as big an issue as what lies elsewhere....having said that, we do need to get them playing together......having said that both was involved in the build up to our goal on sunday. Edited October 4, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 4, 2021 Moderator Share Posted October 4, 2021 I think there's a base to anything we try to do - there are then options around that base, but I struggle to see any way that we can move away from the base successfully. That base is a keeper, at least two CB's, three midfielders and a couple of full backs. ---------------------------------XXXXXX------------------------------ XXXXX---------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------XXXXXX -------------------------------XXXXXXX---------------------------- --------------------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------------------- I think you can line the midfield up in this way also: ---------------------------------XXXXXX------------------------------ XXXXX---------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------XXXXXX --------------------XXXXXX-------XXXXXX--------------------- ------------------------------XXXXXXX----------------------------- You can then add an extra CB, or Wingers and one or two up top - but you've only got three positions to play with. There are plenty of questions within the base - Hause or Tuanzebe as the extra CB, Ings or Watkins if you're only going with one up front, whether Buendia can play in midfield and if he can whether it means we have to play two holding midfielders behind him (which means dropping McGinn for Nakamba), but I think the base as a starting shape is set. I think we'll alternate between having three CB's and two up top and having two CB's, one striker and wingers - I think we can afford to be quite fluid in terms of how we play and I think we can adjust it during games. For me at the moment if everyone was fit, with three at the back I'd go: -----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- ----------Tuanzebe----------Konsa------------Mings--------------- Cash-----------------------------Luiz----------------------------Targett --------------------McGinn-------------Sanson------------------------- ----------------------Ings---------------Watkins------------------------- Although it'd be interesting to see: -----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- ----------Tuanzebe----------Konsa------------Mings--------------- Cash---------------Nakamba------------Luiz----------------Targett ---------------------------------Buendia------------------------------------- ----------------------Ings---------------Watkins-------------------------- And with four at the back: ----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- Cash--------------Konsa-----------------Mings-------------Targett -------------------------------------Luiz---------------------------------------- -----------------------McGinn-------------Sanson----------------------- Buendia-------------------------------------------------------------Bailey ---------------------------------Watkins------------------------------------- There are plenty of options and we have a load of flexibility - but I think we need to be careful about pushing square pegs into round holes in an effort to get all the attacking names into the team at the same time. I like this squad, I think we've got good cover for injuries and suspensions and flexibility in the way we play - there are areas we can strengthen, but it's the best squad we've had in some time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 9 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said: I agree. Son does seem to have a good game against us but he also has had good games against all the other teams over the last few seasons. What i am looking for this season is for form to be temporary but class permanent. Not 12 games of the team struggling to play the football it undoubtedly can but 1 or 2 bad games followed by 3 or 4 good. Lets see if we can bounce back quickly rather than dropping 10 yards against Wolves and trying to win ugly . Many teams have many players of the same kind of quality as us. Its now all about seeing if we can show more consistency than the majority of the others to drive us up the table. We have the talent in our squad now. No excuses. Over to Deano and his team to inspire them to greater heights I'm not suggesting we win ugly at all, but equally see the naivety in gung ho too. Its all about control for me and that is hard to get......The teams with players who have good quick feet and physiclly adept, with balance and poise, seem well equipped to get it. If you can dominate your opposite number, particularly in midfield, you go a long way towards gaining control and the initiative favours you......passive play, loses it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 This is the team for me (possibly with inverted wingers): ----------------------------------Martinez---------------------------------- Cash--------------Konsa-----------------Mings-------------Targett -------------------------------------Luiz---------------------------------------- -----------------------McGinn-------------Sanson----------------------- Buendia-------------------------------------------------------------Bailey ---------------------------------Watkins------------------------------------- 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted October 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, jim said: Me. Leaving out all that attacking talent is criminal imo. If we stick with that formation. What was the point in signing those players? It’s all very well saying we have a string bench but I would much rather see the best players starting rather than changing it up when not going our way. the attacking talent of buendia who has yet to really perform for us yet, the inconsistent traore and a 19 year old kid who's played just a few mins of PL football?? those were all we had on the bench from an attacking perspective don't get me wrong, not writing buendia off and i'm very fond of traore but the team we had out yesterday caused utd and chelsea all sorts of problems. i didn't expect any changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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