Team shape, tactics and personnel

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

Emi

Cash Konsa - Mings - Targett

         Mcginn    Luiz

Bailey     Buendia    Ings

                 Watkins

That's our best XI IMO. 

 

That's a 4-2-4 in practice - our best XI needs three midfielders in midfield - shoehorning in the four attacking players makes us weaker imo.

 

 

[Peter Griffin]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's a 4-2-4 in practice - our best XI needs three midfielders in midfield - shoehorning in the four attacking players makes us weaker imo.

 

 

I like that team but I think I would play Watkins on the right, Bailey on the left and Ings up front.

[OutByEaster?]

I think it would get overrun - I'd drop Watkins or Ings for Ramsey (or Sanson) with Bailey on the left and Buendia on the right.

[KentVillan]

14 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's a 4-2-4 in practice - our best XI needs three midfielders in midfield - shoehorning in the four attacking players makes us weaker imo.

Agree with your point that shoehorning players into a formation usually sees them drift into their natural roles, but I think Buendia has the potential to be a legitimate centre mid from what I've seen. Obviously the most attacking mid of the 3, but I don't think we'd see him doing what Barkley did last year, for example.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Liverpool still play a front three though, Salah and Mane are never both occupying the central position, they interchange throughout the game.

 

I agree that we shouldn't just play one way, set pieces can be a great source of goals, but we seem to have gone overboard on it. I was at the match yesterday and it just bored me watching us take ages to take a long throw every time and it was always ineffective anyway. Even if we lose I actually want to enjoy watching us play and yesterday I didn't, and that wasn't just down to individual performances it was also down to tactics and the way we approached the game. 

 

Maybe he'll find a way to get Ings and Watkins working, but he's not helping himself by leaving his creative players on the bench every game. We lost a huge player in the summer, we signed some very good individual players that we spent a good deal of money on and he hasn't managed to integrate any of them into the team effectively. He's got to start getting Buendia into the team, Traore too, sadly Bailey has been non-stop injured but hopefully he'll be back for Wolves. We need players who can take the ball and make things happen. There's lots of energy in the middle and out wide but not enough quality, that's what I'm seeing anyway. 

When we lose a game its rarely one thing....I didn't see tactics as the main culprit.....I seen better perfomances from some of the Spurs players, in crucial area's.

firstly, Their midfield was better equipped to stop us, from gaining any creativity, (better than we stopped them) and eventually, they won that area with Hojbjerg the stand out midfielder, not just because of his goal, he was better quality than what we had.....when they eventually seized the initiative, they played in the space behind the wing backs and Son came in to his own, as a player of his quality, given space ,can.....if we had of changed that, we would have lost out elsewhere.....at the end of the day, it does come down to individuals excelling, average performances cannot be masked over in every game, by tactics or deploying bodies.

as the old saying goes....." you win the right to play football, they won the right"

Having said all of that.....I thought baring the 2 errors, ( Chelsea again) we made it hard for them and could have won as easily as we lost.....If we had of won, would we have seen the game itself differently, I would guess we would.

Edited October 5, 2021 by TRO

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think it would get overrun - I'd drop Watkins or Ings for Ramsey (or Sanson) with Bailey on the left and Buendia on the right.

I was thinking it's probably time to drop Ings to the bench. Drop Hause. Bring in Buendia and Bailey.

I get the feeling maybe Bailey won't be risked from the start though 

[TRO]

Its one thing playing 2 or 3 in midfield, but when they are much the same in style( not great at defending or creating, unless the opposition allow us to), its another thing to contemplating playing 2 in there.....talk about being overrun, it would be a stampede.

I think we will see much chopping and changing in this area this season, until we get some consistency.

 

 

[nick76]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I was thinking it's probably time to drop Ings to the bench. Drop Hause. Bring in Buendia and Bailey.

I get the feeling maybe Bailey won't be risked from the start though 

Not a feeling, it’s obvious we won’t start Bailey whose had very little game time and a couple injuries already.  

Also I have no idea why we’d drop Ings to the bench! That doesn’t make sense to me.

[CVByrne]

45 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Not a feeling, it’s obvious we won’t start Bailey whose had very little game time and a couple injuries already.  

Also I have no idea why we’d drop Ings to the bench! That doesn’t make sense to me.

Play one CF so we'd drop him over Watkins.

Ings Watkins Traore

McGinn Luiz Buendia

That could be an option. But Could have Buendia in front line and Ramsey in midfield

 

[nick76]

17 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Play one CF so we'd drop him over Watkins.

Ings Watkins Traore

McGinn Luiz Buendia

That could be an option. But Could have Buendia in front line and Ramsey in midfield

 

I wouldn’t be dropping Ings or Watkins at the moment however they line up. 

[MWARLEY2]

Had a thought about this . Dean is thinking back 2 front maybe . He is desperate to get Ollie and ings firing but just having them on the pitch isnt really going to make a difference unless they are in scoring positions and not knackered from pressing all game. 

We have spent £65 million on Bailey and Buendia . Between them last season they scored 26 and assisted 27.  

They should be the first 2 names on the teamsheet as they contributed 53 goal scoring actions last season. 

This suggests to me that if we build the team around those 2 the upside will be huge .  They offer different kinds of assists as well so they will not be treading on each others toes on the pitch.  One will stretch a defence with pace and the other will split the defence with passes . 

I think if Dean concentrates on this conundrum rather than the strikers we will be in a far better place. 

 

[Keener window-cleaner]

If we need to play three at the back and two up front, I wounder if not this would be at least a little bit better? At least Ings and Watkins would get some quality from Buendia to work with. Would love Bailey instead of Targett too, but not sure if it would be solid enough.

                               Emi

           Konsa    Tuanzebe   Mings

Cash        McGinn        Luiz        Targett 

                            Buendia

             Ings                         Watkins                

   

Though I think our strongest team would be a 4-2-3-1 with Cash, Konsa, Mings, Targett; McGinn, Luiz; Traore, Buendia, Bailey; Ings

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Keener window-cleaner

[TomC]

12 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's a 4-2-4 in practice - our best XI needs three midfielders in midfield - shoehorning in the four attacking players makes us weaker imo.

I disagree...a 4-2-3-1 is more of a 4-5-1 in defense. Bailey, Buendia, and Ings have all showed that they will track back. The players in the 3 act more as attacking midfielders, not as forwards.

[TomC]

9 hours ago, nick76 said:

Also I have no idea why we’d drop Ings to the bench! That doesn’t make sense to me.

Agreed. While we may have signed Ings to score goals, you can't ignore his contributions setting up others. He had the 2nd assist on Watkins' goal against Spurs. And think about his pass to set up Bailey's goal against Everton.

[TomC]

I am beginning to think that we're just going to have to be patient this year. It may take half a season for Deano to figure things out with the new players. Think of 2019-20 and all the new players we had...that group gelled only just in time to avoid relegation. We don't have as many new players this year, but we have plenty: Three completely new players who should be regulars (Ings, Bailey, Buendia) plus perhaps another when he's healthy (Sanson), one youth player who's a regular for the first time (Ramsey), and a couple old-new players who haven't played with the current group (Tuanzebe, Young). I'd love to jump into the top 6 this year but if we can move up to 8th or 9th this year and give the new core time to gel with each other, maybe we'll be in a position to make a big jump next year like we did last year.

Of course, Deano actually has to experiment with the resources at his disposal and not get stuck in one idea.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by TomC
Fixed spelling mistake

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, TomC said:

I disagree...a 4-2-3-1 is more of a 4-5-1 in defense. Bailey, Buendia, and Ings have all showed that they will track back. The players in the 3 act more as attacking midfielders, not as forwards.

They do, as does Watkins, but there's a difference between being a hard working forward and a proper midfielder - perhaps more of a concern would be the two behind them, McGinn is wasted as one of two holding midfielders, he'd want to be more of an eight - if we were to play Buendia as a ten, we'd need to play our best holding pair - Luiz  and Nakamba - I think we lose far too much doing that.

All of our best formations in my opinion include no more than three of Watkins, Ings, Buendia, Bailey and Traore - and some only have room for two of those - I understand the desire to get four of those into the team, but unless we're going to go out and buy N'Golo Kante to mop up behind them, I'm not sure how we can do it without giving up the middle of the park and with it any control of the game.

 

 

[ismail-villa]

18 hours ago, Czarnikjak said:

You just described 4-4-1-1 not 4-3-3

I'm just used to the 4-3-3 attack formation from fifa

[VillaFaninLondon]

19 hours ago, TRO said:

When we lose a game its rarely one thing....I didn't see tactics as the main culprit.....I seen better perfomances from some of the Spurs players, in crucial area's.

firstly, Their midfield was better equipped to stop us, from gaining any creativity, (better than we stopped them) and eventually, they won that area with Hojbjerg the stand out midfielder, not just because of his goal, he was better quality than what we had.....when they eventually seized the initiative, they played in the space behind the wing backs and Son came in to his own, as a player of his quality, given space ,can.....if we had of changed that, we would have lost out elsewhere.....at the end of the day, it does come down to individuals excelling, average performances cannot be masked over in every game, by tactics or deploying bodies.

as the old saying goes....." you win the right to play football, they won the right"

Having said all of that.....I thought baring the 2 errors, ( Chelsea again) we made it hard for them and could have won as easily as we lost.....If we had of won, would we have seen the game itself differently, I would guess we would.

I think my point was I just want to see our strongest team out there and they won't be in this formation. Buendia and Bailey were both outstanding last season for their clubs and should be key men for us to replace the departing Grealish after a £65m outlay. OK, Bailey is injured but even when he was in the matchday squads Smith had him on the bench - the excuse is he was wary of his fitness but then the worry is we have signed a potential superstar who can't stay fit which is far from ideal. Buendia hasn't looked as great as we thought he was going to be so far to be fair, but when our central area is seriously lacking in creativity you wonder why he can't get a game. Traore is another one, yes he can be frustrating but he was involved in 14 goals in the league last season and yet has barely played this season. 

 

The point about Son is fair, he was the difference between the teams and I agree with Smith on that, but then playing with just one player down that side (Cash) when in a flat back four there would be two players to double up meant Son had more space to exploit. So it's the same argument about formation.

 

I think Smith wants to keep playing it because he wants the Ings-Watkins partnership to work, but so far neither are at their best and he's leaving expensive creative options on the bench to persist with this. Now we have a more winnable set of fixtures coming up after the international break I hope he goes back to the formation we used prior to the Chelsea game. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by VillaFaninLondon

[TRO]

7 hours ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

I think my point was I just want to see our strongest team out there and they won't be in this formation. Buendia and Bailey were both outstanding last season for their clubs and should be key men for us to replace the departing Grealish after a £65m outlay. OK, Bailey is injured but even when he was in the matchday squads Smith had him on the bench - the excuse is he was wary of his fitness but then the worry is we have signed a potential superstar who can't stay fit which is far from ideal. Buendia hasn't looked as great as we thought he was going to be so far to be fair, but when our central area is seriously lacking in creativity you wonder why he can't get a game. Traore is another one, yes he can be frustrating but he was involved in 14 goals in the league last season and yet has barely played this season. 

 

The point about Son is fair, he was the difference between the teams and I agree with Smith on that, but then playing with just one player down that side (Cash) when in a flat back four there would be two players to double up meant Son had more space to exploit. So it's the same argument about formation.

 

I think Smith wants to keep playing it because he wants the Ings-Watkins partnership to work, but so far neither are at their best and he's leaving expensive creative options on the bench to persist with this. Now we have a more winnable set of fixtures coming up after the international break I hope he goes back to the formation we used prior to the Chelsea game. 

I think we all do, whatever that is......but I don't see, playing excesses of ball playing numbers as an answer to creativity.....Bailey, is needed, I grant you that, but so far, Buendia, is a shadow of himself, it seems like finding pukki was his forte and those runs are not being made, its a co-ordination issue.....but giving the ball away cheaply, will not take us anywhere....we will continue with this inconsistency of results and midtable will be our parking lot.

Firstly, you can't create without the ball, so getting it is a start, and keeping it, is next.....In my humble opinion we have 3 x CMs....as opposed to a CDM,CM,ATM.....they can neither attack of defend in any great quality, consistently.....now I know, I will have opposing opinions on this, and I accept we have taken some huge scalps with it.....but I am talking in a general sense....some games we are better than others....Spurs first objective, was to stop us, (until they won that battle)as opposed to Man U'S objective was to out play us, from the get go.

Against Spurs, we started quite well and pressed early on, when our passing went astray and resorted back to giving the ball away cheaply, the press subsided and their midfield started to take control....They captured the initiative.

We undoubtedly have good players, but we need contrast in the future,particularly in midfield, Sanson might help, when he is fit, Tim Iroegbunam, might be the answer in time or Chukweumeka......but right now it looks too samey for me.

Son, was the standout player granted.....but Skipp, Ndombele & Hojbjerg....won the battle for control. I come back to my earlier comments " They stopped us better than we stopped them"

These players of theirs was missing against Arsenal....We felt the backlash and it was always on the cards, with a quality side......consistency is what we are all looking for.

Edited October 6, 2021 by TRO

[Sulberto21]

8 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

 we're going to go out and buy N'Golo Kante 

 

P.S Sauce ?