Transgenderism

[mjmooney]

My daughter works for the Tavistock Clinic (in an admin capacity). FWIW, here are some of her comments from a WhatsApp conversation we were having just now, in the wake of today's news coverage: 

Quote

I really really am scared that we are going to lose some young people to suicide because of this. 

You don't hear that side of the story in the news, just that one person who changed her mind. 

I think it's so unfair like women who regret having an abortion then don't want anyone else to be allowed to have one. 

And so much in the news is untrue we give so much psychological support (that's the main point of what we do) and assessment and questioning. 

Bbc would have you believe we are giving blockers out like tictacs. 

I don't think we give the optimal amount of support but that's due to the exponential increase in demand and waiting list. 

How many families are going to be able to pay for legal fees for getting their (imo essential) healthcare? 

It's just adding to the damaging narrative that trans people should not be believed if they say they are trans. Like JKR who thinks that trans women are men wearing skirts especially so they can watch her take a piss. 

 

[5-1]

3 hours ago, sne said:

 

So much respect to Elliot. Coming out twice, even more so in his industry, takes so much courage

[bickster]

Hilariously the transphobes have got Elaine Paige trending on twiiter as they try to deadname Elliot Page and get the name wrong

[legov]

I've always had a bit of a crush on him/her.

Edited December 2, 2020 by legov

[TheAuthority]

@icouldtelltheworld

Thanks for your post on 19/11 - Just got around to reading it now.  You bring up interesting points. I learnt today that violence against trans people means that their life expectancy is 35 in the US. Yes, 35 - Thats medieval.

It's a demonstrable fact that men who wish to sexually assault women don't dress up as women and enter their bathrooms to do it. But it is absolutely true that men kill transgender people. My opinion is that we should deal with that issue.
The bathroom argument is a noisy distraction.

JKR's arguments are very selfish. Trans folks have different issues and stigmas - that doesn't make feminine equality any less important - it's just a different issue. It's hard to understand why she's misunderstood this so much.

On as the comments that @mjmooney shared from his daughter. Murder isn't the only thing that causes death amongst the trans community. Suicide especially amongst teens if rife. 

It is society's duty to protect our most vulnerable other wise what are we? The majority of trans folks understand or feel that they are trans from an early age. What if it were you? Or your own child? 35 years of life expectancy?

[TheAuthority]

1 hour ago, legov said:

I've always had a bit of a crush on him/her.

Him now, but yeah.

8/10 WB

[Seat68]

I have always liked his acting, my hope is that Umbrella Academy embraces this. 

[StefanAVFC]

2 hours ago, Seat68 said:

I have always liked his acting, my hope is that Umbrella Academy embraces this. 

Varya was always pretty androgynous to be fair, don't see how it doesn't work. 

[YouUnastanFren]

3 hours ago, Seat68 said:

I have always liked his acting, my hope is that Umbrella Academy embraces this. 

 

23 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Varya was always pretty androgynous to be fair, don't see how it doesn't work. 

I've not watched the show, would you expect the idea to be for him to continue to play an androgynous female character or for the writers to adjust the character to be male?

[Chindie]

The ruling yesterday feels short sighted. It's sad that one person feels they made a mistake but I daresay that is outweighed by those that truly feel they made the right choice.

As for Elliott Page - good on him. To go from being outted at a young age to being able to reveal himself as trans and be accepted wholeheartedly is great progress. 

 

[lapal_fan]

Good for him.

Welcome to the dick swinging club bro

 

Edit.. I'm blaming this on Michael Cera btw.

Edited December 2, 2020 by lapal_fan

[KentVillan]

This is one of those debates where it always feels safer to just say nothing, but here goes.

I think there are some arguments from the TERFs that might have some merit - especially women's sport, since trans women often have unusual physical advantages even after hormone therapy.

But mostly the TERF stuff just comes across as bullying, and accusing people of potential crimes they haven't actually committed but *might* commit if allowed anywhere near a "safe space". It's as unfair as the "all men are rapists" brand of feminism.

On the other hand, I think a lot of the language that has emerged - the pronoun obsession, stuff like "people who menstruate", and even using "trans" for "transgender" kind of get on my nerves. But it's not a big deal for me. I don't know why people get so worked up about it. Let people do what they want to their own bodies.

Anyway, a couple of songs to lighten the mood...

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by KentVillan

[icouldtelltheworld]

8 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

@icouldtelltheworld

Thanks for your post on 19/11 - Just got around to reading it now.  You bring up interesting points. I learnt today that violence against trans people means that their life expectancy is 35 in the US. Yes, 35 - Thats medieval.

It's a demonstrable fact that men who wish to sexually assault women don't dress up as women and enter their bathrooms to do it. But it is absolutely true that men kill transgender people. My opinion is that we should deal with that issue.
The bathroom argument is a noisy distraction.

JKR's arguments are very selfish. Trans folks have different issues and stigmas - that doesn't make feminine equality any less important - it's just a different issue. It's hard to understand why she's misunderstood this so much.

On as the comments that @mjmooney shared from his daughter. Murder isn't the only thing that causes death amongst the trans community. Suicide especially amongst teens if rife. 

It is society's duty to protect our most vulnerable other wise what are we? The majority of trans folks understand or feel that they are trans from an early age. What if it were you? Or your own child? 35 years of life expectancy?

Thanks for your response mate - in answer to your questions about what I would do were it my child, the brutal answer is that I simply don't know. There is so much to balance with this argument and all of us will probably seem ignorant on the issue when we look back on things in 20 years time (hopefully my attempts at being honest and rational in dealing with trans rights came across in my initial post). There are two issues here - trans people obviously deserve protection and are clearly at greater risk of a number of harms, but I also think that if we're putting people on an irreversible journey of gender reassignment surgery then there needs to be appropriate safeguards in place to protect children and ensure that the decision they make is right. There was a court judgement in the UK yesterday about whether or not children can reasonably consent to undergoing surgery, brought about by a 'detransitioner' who regrets undergoing surgery. In future cases, it is likely that the courts will need to make a decision on whether children can adaquately consent to puberty blockers. You may find it interesting to read about the judgement.

 

Quote

The claim was brought by Keira Bell, a 23-year-old woman who began taking puberty blockers when she was 16 before detransitioning, and the unnamed mother of a 15-year-old autistic girl who is on the waiting list for treatment.

In their decision, Dame Victoria Sharp, president of the Queen’s bench division, Lord Justice Lewis and Mrs Justice Lieven, said a child under the age of 16 may only consent to the use of medication intended to suppress puberty “where he or she is competent to understand the nature of the treatment”.

Such an understanding must include “the immediate and long-term consequences of the treatment, the limited evidence available as to its efficacy or purpose, the fact that the vast majority of patients proceed to the use of cross-sex hormones, and its potential life-changing consequences for a child”.

The judges said there would be enormous difficulties for young children weighing up this information and deciding whether to consent to the use of puberty blocking medication.

There is obviously a very difficult balancing act to be performed between giving trans people appropriate treatment and safeguarding children from making a decision that they later regret. Again, I have no answer one way or the other on this, I simply recognise that gender reassignment poses child safeguarding issues that we must take account of.

With regards to trans life expectancy - you're right, a life expectancy of just 35 is medieval. It's also an entirely false statistic. The often cited life expectancy of 35 years seems to be a misreading of the findings of a study into homocides of LGBTQ people who had been murdered in Latin America, which found that the average age of victims in the examined cases was 35. Somewhere along the line a bit of Chinese whispers seems to have taken place and many people have repeated the line that the life expectancy of trans people in America is 35, but this is patently untrue (there is some more info at this link if you'd like to see it)

 

Quote

The link included goes to a press release for a report entitled, “An Overview of Violence against LGBTI Persons in the Americas: a Registry Documenting Acts of Violence between January 1, 2013 and March 31, 2014.”

That report was compiled by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in 2015, and in it, researchers examined 594 homicides in which LGBTQ people were victims over a 15-month period

I agree with entirely that the bathroom issue is a noisy non-issue that does nothing to help trans people or to further the debate, but I also think that the spreading of fake statistics and sensational arguments does nothing to help trans people either (certainly not accusing you of deliberately spreading false information - but I think it's important that we establish fact from fiction when dealing with such a delicate and sensitive topic).

There may well be no precedent of men dressing up as women to attack men, but unfortunately there have been cases of anatomically-male trans women attacking other inmates in female prisons here in the UK.
 

Quote

Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.

Do I think that affording greater rights and awareness to trans people is going to set off an epidemic of men dressing up as women to access spaces and attack women? No, of course I don't. However, do I understand the anxiety of women around allowing trans women with male sexual functioning into single-sex spaces for vulnerable women (rape crisis centres, prisons, domestic abuse shelters etc.) - yes, having followed the debate closley I do believe that those anxieties are entirely reasonable, albeit at times exaggerated by certain people.

As a final counter point, trans people are evidently at a greater risk of both serious violence and suicide, as are LGBT people more generally. My view on this is that it is patriarchy, heteronormativity and the still prevalant aggressive masculinity are the reasons behind this. I don't think that it is at all contradictory to agree that more needs to be done to safeguard trans people at the same time as having an open and honest discussion about some of the anxieties arising from the wider transgender debate.

Edited December 2, 2020 by icouldtelltheworld

[blandy]

1 hour ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

As a final counter point, trans people are evidently at a greater risk of both serious violence and suicide, as are LGBT people more generally. My view on this is that it is patriarchy, heteronormativity and the still prevalant aggressive masculinity are the reasons behind this.

I beleive I read on the Government or ONS website that (the conclusion you make) is contradicted by the data. I'll see if I can find it, but I recall that a huge chunk of the perpetrators of the violence were partners of the victims (domestic violence), which to me tends to suggest that the picture is actually a bit different. The things you mention clearly exist and clearly are a problem, but perhaps there are other even worse problems behind the violence and suicides, if the data is to be believed?

[icouldtelltheworld]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

I beleive I read on the Government or ONS website that (the conclusion you make) is contradicted by the data. I'll see if I can find it, but I recall that a huge chunk of the perpetrators of the violence were partners of the victims (domestic violence), which to me tends to suggest that the picture is actually a bit different. The things you mention clearly exist and clearly are a problem, but perhaps there are other even worse problems behind the violence and suicides, if the data is to be believed?

Think we are in agreement but maybe interpreting the issue a little differently (if that makes any sense?) My personal view is that the vast majority of domestic violence is rooted in agressive masculinity. Obviously females perpetrate domestic violence too, but male violence against women and children is a serious problem all over the world and a leading cause of preventable death in younger women and girls. I'm sure that risk translates over to contexts where men are in relationships or sexually involved with trans women (who probably face the added risk of their partner's internalised transphobia).

[PaulC]

Just read that Ellen Page now wants to identify as Elliot Page. Just wonder what effect this will have on his/her acting career?

[Seat68]

He does identify. He doesn’t want to, he does identify. He is Elliot Page. 
 

[StefanAVFC]

Yep, there is no his/her. It's his or he. 

[lapal_fan]

Pretty woke replies there guys, awesome. 

[HanoiVillan]

Not really 'woke', just correct.