Transgenderism

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Not 100% related to the topic, but I wonder if 1980s Villatalk would have a thread titled 'the gays' or 1960s American Villatalk 'The Coloureds'. Interesting how there's always a social conflict around a certain group. I wonder if in x years, people will be baffled how we ever made such an issue out of it.

Think I said before about my daughters school , where she kinda just has friends  at lunchtime who eat Pepperoni pizza and those that just eat Cheese pizza   .. the non Pepperoni pizza eaters sorta all  encompasses  Muslims ,Jews  vegetarians and what not  .. the different religion , skin colours (i mean with the Indian girls  and  not the pasty ill looking colour that vegetarians have )  aren't even a thing to them , they've just grown up in a world where everything that shocks 60 year men is natural to them

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Not 100% related to the topic, but I wonder if 1980s Villatalk would have a thread titled 'the gays' or 1960s American Villatalk 'The Coloureds'. Interesting how there's always a social conflict around a certain group. I wonder if in x years, people will be baffled how we ever made such an issue out of it.

Yeah I've said similar before when you see people protesting against gay marriage and the like.

You know when we look back and see people protesting outside of American schools because they're allowing black kids to attend? And it's absolutely bat shit mental.

That's how people will look back on this sort of stuff

[Stevo985]

My personal opinion on it is there is a distinction between "sex" and "gender"

 

To me, your "sex" is what you were assigned at birth. Your original biological makeup, which is kind of undeniable. It's science (not saying there aren't some grey areas)

Your gender is how you identify and can be whatever the **** you want it to be. Let people be who they want and respect them for it.

 

I dunno if that's seen as "right" or not, but that's how it is in my head. Happy to be educated on the matter.

[lapal_fan]

I kind of get both sides of the argument, but at some point, somebody (a lot of people) are going to be disappointed with the result. 

In light of the Linehan stuff, I actually had a conversation in my old office (surrounded by women) and asked "are transgender people a problem?" Unanimously "no" was given back.

"If a former man - now woman came into a changing room and you both had to get into a swimming costume, or dry off (or whatever), would that make you uncomfortable?" The replies ranged from "well I wouldn't put myself in that position because I'd use a cubicle" to "I wouldn't feel comfortable, no" to "it wouldn't be a problem" showed me that there was at least some discomfort in the potential situation.  And I absolutely understand that.  I don't like communal changing rooms and I can and have felt intimidated on occasion in them (lol small dick), and I wasn't at risk of anything..  

What I will stick my neck out and say is, is I don't think it's fair on born-women having to compete with transgender women.  I think that removes competition and I don't think it's fair on the women athletes who work as hard as any athlete does, and have it stacked away from their favour, such is the genetical difference between the two sexes.

As for everyday instances?  I've worked with a pre-op woman (born man) called Rachel, and she was absolutely normal.  Nobody cared, she was welcomed just as much as any other person who came in the office - who cares? 

A member of my wife's extended family is also on the list to transition into a man - her life through late primary school, all of high school and even into college years has been riddled with depression (culminating in many attempts to take her (at the time) own life) and it's been genuinely sad hearing how she (at the time) was doing when school should be fun.  He's now apparently much happier and is going through all of the due processes and counselling before transitioning in a few years. 

Back onto Rachel for a moment, she was play-fighting over a Mars bar with another colleague and in one moment, bent over the desk and lifted one leg very high, keeping the other on the floor.  She was wearing a mini skirt and it was about 2 yards from my desk.  Not only was it eye opening so much as it nearly had my eye out. 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by lapal_fan

[mjmooney]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

My personal opinion on it is there is a distinction between "sex" and "gender"

 

To me, your "sex" is what you were assigned at birth. Your original biological makeup, which is kind of undeniable. It's science (not saying there aren't some grey areas)

Your gender is how you identify and can be whatever the **** you want it to be. Let people be who they want and respect them for it.

 

I dunno if that's seen as "right" or not, but that's how it is in my head. Happy to be educated on the matter.

I'm totally OK with that. 

But I have grave reservations about hormone treatment and surgery. 

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

I'm totally OK with that. 

But I have grave reservations about hormone treatment and surgery. 

Depression and suicide rates (per whatever metric you want to use) are incredibly high in the trans-community and there are a few (and growing number) of trans people urging pre-transitioning people not to do it.

It's a really horrible and utterly life-changing problem for people.  You just have to hope they make the right choice for themselves. 

[sne]

Sports is a "interesting" subject when it comes to this. I've seen it suggested (in some sports at least) that you would no be allowed to compete as a woman if you've gone through puberty as a man. And that probably fair.

But no doubt every sport (and person) if different. Got to be some rules and regulations I guess or it will no doubt be exploited. Maybe not like this but still.

 

[Stevo985]

I agree with @lapal_fan on the sport thing. It's very hard thing to balance I guess. How far does equal go before it becomes an unfair advantage. But it's an unbelievably complicated issue as the ongoing Semenya situation shows.

 

My only other issue with anything Transgender that I can think of is kids. As in, when is old enough to know what gender you identify as? There was that Louis Theroux documentary where he interviewed families who had young kids who were taking drugs and hormones to change their gender. I think there was even surgery involved and they were like 6 or 7 year old kids.
I'm all for letting kids identify their own gender if that's what they want. If a 6 year old boy knows he feels like a girl and wants to be a girl then let him be one. But acting on that to the extent of making potentially irreversible changes to a child when they're arguably not old enough to make those kinds of decisions makes me very uncomfortable.

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I agree with @lapal_fan on the sport thing. It's very hard thing to balance I guess. How far does equal go before it becomes an unfair advantage. But it's an unbelievably complicated issue as the ongoing Semenya situation shows.

 

My only other issue with anything Transgender that I can think of is kids. As in, when is old enough to know what gender you identify as? There was that Louis Theroux documentary where he interviewed families who had young kids who were taking drugs and hormones to change their gender. I think there was even surgery involved and they were like 6 or 7 year old kids.
I'm all for letting kids identify their own gender if that's what they want. If a 6 year old boy knows he feels like a girl and wants to be a girl then let him be one. But acting on that to the extent of making potentially irreversible changes to a child when they're arguably not old enough to make those kinds of decisions makes me very uncomfortable.

When it comes to children is probably where it would be best for me not to comment, as I think parents (sometimes damaged parents) almost make that suggestion to an otherwise happy child and plant a seed that otherwise wouldn't have been there.  

I don't think it's surprising that this issue is quite common in very left-leaning states in the USA.  And I say "quite common", let's face it - it's not, but it's what I'm aware of.  

 

[desensitized43]

What a complete minefield of a topic.

I've followed JKR's battles with this and read her (ridiculously long) article about this. The problem is that there's so much here that's contradictary but in my opinion, ultimately it comes down to a fundamental question of - how trans does someone have to be to be regarded as a woman?

1. Men who like to dress up as women on the weekend but for the majority of the time present to the world as men and have all the male equipment.
2. Men who live as women full time and want to be treated as women but have chosen not to go through reassignment and thus have all the male equipment.
3. Men who live as women and are in the process of gender reassignment but not yet completed - partial equipment.
4. Men live as women and who have completed gender reassignment - no equipment. 

I know my personal opinion is 3 and 4 should probably be regarded as women and be entitled to use female facilities. 1 and 2 probably shouldn't. It's a massive problem though because debate seems to be about self idenitity - I think I am therefore I am.

I did have a fundamental problem with JKRs article though that it centred alot on her personal experiences of abuse at the hands of a former partner and her need for safe female-only spaces. That's the crux of the problem for a lot of women.

A lot of what's driving the female pushback is around the possibility that 1 and 2 might be perverts trying to get into womens changing rooms and toilets. Having a daughter myself I find that understandable.

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

how trans does someone have to be to be regarded as a woman?

1. Men who like to dress up as women on the weekend but for the majority of the time present to the world as men and have all the male equipment.
2. Men who live as women full time and want to be treated as women but have chosen not to go through reassignment and thus have all the male equipment.
3. Men who live as women and are in the process of gender reassignment but not yet completed - partial equipment.
4. Men live as women and who have completed gender reassignment - no equipment. 

I know my personal opinion is 3 and 4 should probably be regarded as women and be entitled to use female facilities. 1 and 2 probably shouldn't. It's a massive problem though because debate seems to be about self idenitity - I think I am therefore I am.

 

To be blunt, you don't get to choose. If someone wants to be regarded as a woman then they are regarded as a woman. It has little to do with their "equipment"

Given your scenarios I would imagine that 2,3 and 4 would all regard themselves as women and so should be treated as such. Number 1 probably wouldn't identify as a woman but if they did, so be it.

We don't get to choose.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Stevo985

[bannedfromHandV]

I actually have a number of views and questions on this subject but as they’re a combination of good and bad (as deemed by modern standards) I’ll keep most to myself.

The one thing that I do find super curious though is this:

If you feel beyond all reasonable doubt that you are in fact the opposite sex, and you go through a process to convert to that opposite sex, why then do we now have this third (and fourth, fifth) ‘gender’?

When did this trend of being openly transgender begin and why? If I felt I was a woman, I would want to be treated as a woman and not a transgender woman, if that makes sense.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

If you feel beyond all reasonable doubt that you are in fact the opposite sex, and you go through a process to convert to that opposite sex, why then do we now have this third (and fourth, fifth) ‘gender’?

When did this trend of being openly transgender begin and why? If I felt I was a woman, I would want to be treated as a woman and not a transgender woman, if that makes sense.

I'm not following? How could one not be 'openly transgender'? You have friends and family who know your identity both before and after transitioning, so how would a person go from being one gender to being another without being 'openly transgender'?

Sorry if I have misunderstood your question.

[maqroll]

I support equal rights and protections for transgender people broadly, but I'm still hung up on the question of athletes who are 6'2", 200 lbs competing in women's sports leagues. 

[desensitized43]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

To be blunt, you don't get to choose. If someone wants to be regarded as a woman then they are regarded as a woman. It has little to do with their "equipment"

Given your scenarios I would imagine that 2,3 and 4 would all regard themselves as women and so should be treated as such. Number 1 probably wouldn't identify as a woman but if they did, so be it.

We don't get to choose.

It has a lot to do with it. What you're born with is the basis by which a birth certificate will show "male" or "female". It's the difference between "sex" and "gender". We don't get to choose what sex or gender we're born, and sometimes what sex your born doesn't match your gender, but the act of changing sex (through reassignment) to match gender is a choice.

So the question seems to me, are female-only spaces for people of a female sex or a female gender?

 

[HanoiVillan]

4 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

It has a lot to do with it. What you're born with is the basis by which a birth certificate will show "male" or "female". It's the difference between "sex" and "gender". We don't get to choose what sex or gender we're born, and sometimes what sex your born doesn't match your gender, but the act of changing sex (through reassignment) to match gender is a choice.

So the question seems to me, are female-only spaces for people of a female sex or a female gender?

 

This question has already been answered in law for a decade.

[desensitized43]

12 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This question has already been answered in law for a decade.

So the law says I can identify as a woman tomorrow morning and be granted the right to use female changing rooms in the afternoon - It just doesn't seem logical and I think that's what the JKRs of the world take issue with. I know it's an extreme example and personally I haven't heard of anyone actually doing something like that but if that's the law then so be it.

Sorry if it seems offensive and honestly everyone has the right to be what they want to be but a lot of well meaning and smart women are saying they aren't comfortable with this. Why do you think that is? Don't just say they're transphobic though.

[bannedfromHandV]

50 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I'm not following? How could one not be 'openly transgender'? You have friends and family who know your identity both before and after transitioning, so how would a person go from being one gender to being another without being 'openly transgender'?

Sorry if I have misunderstood your question.

Yeah I’ve done a piss poor job there.

What I’m trying to query is why, if you felt you were a woman but born a man, and you transitioned to become a woman, why you would then want everyone to know that you are transgender over and above being a woman.

Of course close friends and family will know because they will have known you from birth or early life but in terms of how you present yourself to the wider world, why not present as a woman as opposed to a transgender woman.

I’m probably still doing a piss poor job, it’s kind of a hard thing to put into words properly.

And just for the record i have zero issue with transgenderism on the whole, makes no odds to me what someone wears but I think the militant side of it all is a bit tedious at times, as with all things.

[Rodders]

What is annoying, is that unless you buy the whole argument you're a transphobe. Pointing out surely scienitific definitions aren't fluid ( otherwise it's pointless )or that in a few instances in sport it makes a mockery of the contest - i.e. rachel mckinnon - whilst otherwise fundamentally having no problem whatsoever with trans people and fully supporting people's choice to identify as they will isn't enough for the maniacs. Who then go about pathetically wielding those acronyms. 

I thought the argument that how you physically are born and enter the world, and how the world interacts with you and vice versa as a female is a legitimate argument to make, and thus those who's experiences arent the same as that will have their own distinct experiences, I don't understand why it's so bad to identify as a transman / woman if that's what you are?

[HanoiVillan]

32 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

So the law says I can identify as a woman tomorrow morning and be granted the right to use female changing rooms in the afternoon - It just doesn't seem logical

That isn't at all what the law says. Transitioning from one gender to another is a process, which mostly takes a long time. An important step along the way is for an individual to gain a Gender Recognition Certificate, which is the acknowledgement of the change in law of a person from one gender to another. At that moment, their rights shift somewhat. A transgender person in possession of a Gender Recognition Certificate has the right to access services of their reassigned gender.

There are some exemptions in the Equality Act 2010 that organisations can use to justify refusing to provide certain services to trans people, but these are tightly drawn, need to meet a high burden of proof to demonstrate they are not discriminatory, and in all circumstances exemptions a] need to be a proportional means to achieve a legitimate aim, and b] need to follow the path of least discrimination. Preventing trans women who are legally women from going to the bathroom or entering a changing cubicle is unlikely to be either a legitimate aim or the path of least discrimination.

32 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

a lot of well meaning and smart women are saying they aren't comfortable with this. Why do you think that is? Don't just say they're transphobic though.

Difficult to answer questions if you're going to rule out the main possible answer, but I suppose another possible explanation is that they also don't understand the law.

Edited November 11, 2020 by HanoiVillan