Transgenderism

[HanoiVillan]

21 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Yeah I’ve done a piss poor job there.

What I’m trying to query is why, if you felt you were a woman but born a man, and you transitioned to become a woman, why you would then want everyone to know that you are transgender over and above being a woman.

Of course close friends and family will know because they will have known you from birth or early life but in terms of how you present yourself to the wider world, why not present as a woman as opposed to a transgender woman.

I’m probably still doing a piss poor job, it’s kind of a hard thing to put into words properly.

And just for the record i have zero issue with transgenderism on the whole, makes no odds to me what someone wears but I think the militant side of it all is a bit tedious at times, as with all things.

No, I think I get what you mean, so thanks for clarifying. I'm sure there are plenty of trans women and trans men who opt for 'a quiet life' and don't engage in discussion re the politics; surely we would be less likely to be aware of such a person by definition.

But I think people are forced into caring by circumstances. The process of legally changing gender is long, often expensive, and can be humiliating, and the reward at the other end is a culture which is fairly suspicious of who you are and your motives for transitioning (notice how quickly this discussion moved to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope). Under the circumstances, I can see why people feel the need to organise politically to defend their rights.

[bannedfromHandV]

5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

No, I think I get what you mean, so thanks for clarifying. I'm sure there are plenty of trans women and trans men who opt for 'a quiet life' and don't engage in discussion re the politics; surely we would be less likely to be aware of such a person by definition.

But I think people are forced into caring by circumstances. The process of legally changing gender is long, often expensive, and can be humiliating, and the reward at the other end is a culture which is fairly suspicious of who you are and your motives for transitioning (notice how quickly this discussion moved to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope). Under the circumstances, I can see why people feel the need to organise politically to defend their rights.

Yeah I get that, and its not about people actively trying to hide it or being ashamed of it any way, that’s not what I’m getting at.

 

I guess I just find it interesting that maybe in the past, people aspired to be the opposite sex whereas it feels now that some folks are aspiring to be transgender, but maybe that’s just a natural evolution of sorts.

[chrisp65]

Is the sport question possibly addressed by not having male and female, but having bands of whatever ‘chemical’ is chosen to be measured, testosterone or whatever.

It doesn’t stop someone having male levels of testosterone through youth and puberty and getting the muscle and bone advantage from that, then medicating differently in later life. 

But it would stop some of the male / female, dick / no dick simplicity of the argument from some people.

Extensive scientific research has lead me to know that there are men with tiny tiny dicks, and wimmin with absolute belters of clits.

There. I said it.

For the record, I’m cool with all of it, but have invested little time to date in understanding the language of cis / trans / bi etc.. In the nicest possible way, I couldn’t care less what you are as long as you are a nice.

[Xela]

Interesting topic and a lot of my views have been covered in other peoples posts. I get the sport issue. I think there is a NZ weightlifter, who is trans and they have a huge advantage over the other women due to genetic and biological differences. 

The one issue I am uncomfortable with is children who want to transition and are taking hormone suppressers at a young age. Its too big a decision for a child to make. There have been cases of people transitioning young and then transitioning back a few years later. I don't think 9 or 10 years old is an age to talking about changing gender. 

[Chindie]

3 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

Did the Linehan thing stem from that episode of the IT Crowd with Douglas dating the trans woman?  I read it got banned from the streaming services.  I found that episode funny myself, I'm not sure whether I should feel guilty for it.  It must be hard for people growing up thinking you're one sex but physically the other, I have a lot of sympathy for those who have had to hide it all their life and it's positive that people are gradually more accepting of it.  I'm not sure of the science behind it tbh.  What pissed me off was there was a girl who I think was transitioning to male at my old work and people were kicking up a stink about which toilet he could use, people seem to think that they're some sort of sexual pervert that can't be trusted to go to the loo without molesting someone.

With Linehan that seems to be the starting point. He got some criticism for the episode a few years back, and that kick-started him spiralling into a more or less single issue personality of transphobia. To the extent he's kinda lost it.

[Chindie]

I do kinda think the ever present sports question is a bit of a red herring. It's seemingly used as a 'pain point' in the discussion to undermine the idea of trans rights, when it's kinda a sideshow. It's not important. But it's always there as a way of saying 'steady on, careful now' despite that.

[chrisp65]

24 minutes ago, Xela said:

Interesting topic and a lot of my views have been covered in other peoples posts. I get the sport issue. I think there is a NZ weightlifter, who is trans and they have a huge advantage over the other women due to genetic and biological differences. 

The one issue I am uncomfortable with is children who want to transition and are taking hormone suppressers at a young age. Its too big a decision for a child to make. There have been cases of people transitioning young and then transitioning back a few years later. I don't think 9 or 10 years old is an age to talking about changing gender. 

I think as a general statement of fact, we’d all think kids can’t make informed decisions and kids should avoid any medication or procedure they possibly can. 

But, equally, some kids and their parents do just absolutely ‘know’. Hell, some kids are born and it’s not even clear physiologically which sex they are, never mind emotionally or psychologically. So it’s just a spectacularly wide range or spectrum of cases to try and find a yes/no solution for.

Plenty of cases of children born and the doctors basically nominating a sex for them.

It’s only complex, if we insist everyone fits in to one of two pigeon holes. Which itself, is in part just a problem around people being able to openly discuss sex.

[lapal_fan]

37 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I do kinda think the ever present sports question is a bit of a red herring. It's seemingly used as a 'pain point' in the discussion to undermine the idea of trans rights, when it's kinda a sideshow. It's not important. But it's always there as a way of saying 'steady on, careful now' despite that.

I'd say it was quite important to the competitors who dedicate their entire lives to it.

It's not a red herring, it's a legitimate point which often used to point out that there are differences in sexes, because there are some people who genuinely believe there aren't.

Linehan did go too far in his one man diatribe, but his intention (to begin with) was against some very strong viewed (and popular) people, who's language and aims were to reduce the rights of women, which I understood sometimes.

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

My personal opinion on it is there is a distinction between "sex" and "gender"

To me, your "sex" is what you were assigned at birth. Your original biological makeup, which is kind of undeniable. It's science (not saying there aren't some grey areas)

Your gender is how you identify and can be whatever the **** you want it to be. Let people be who they want and respect them for it.

I dunno if that's seen as "right" or not, but that's how it is in my head. Happy to be educated on the matter.

I'm pretty much in this boat too. I think people have a right to be described and treated in the way that feels most natural to them - they are after all themselves and who that person is is their choice - that doesn't mean that they weren't born with a physical sex - it means they're entitled to be whomsoever they feel they are, both mentally and physically. 

Sport gets complicated though - the effect of the genetics of sex on physical abilities and how that is managed in line with gender choice is ridiculously complicated.

I'm absolutely no expert and I'm very willing to be taught.

It can be very difficult, it's complicated and it's easy to get things "wrong" without realising.

 

[Seat68]

I am conscious that I might get clumsy in this thread as I don’t really understand all of it. I struggle with gender fluid, so trans, for me, is an area I don’t grasp and so might make an off the cuff remark that isn’t intended. 
My feeling is, if someone doesn’t feel right in their skin and and they know what will make them feel complete, then do it. That decision doesn’t effect me and of the 3 trans people I have worked with, their gender realignment didn’t matter or become any form of talking point. 

[bickster]

Are any of these trans women any good at playing in goal?

[Follyfoot]

12 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I am conscious that I might get clumsy in this thread as I don’t really understand all of it. I struggle with gender fluid, so trans, for me, is an area I don’t grasp and so might make an off the cuff remark that isn’t intended. 
My feeling is, if someone doesn’t feel right in their skin and and they know what will make them feel complete, then do it. That decision doesn’t effect me and of the 3 trans people I have worked with, their gender realignment didn’t matter or become any form of talking point. 

After watching Mr Garrison explain to the class what it involves (male to female) then cut to actual surgical procedure pictures it actually made me understand the situation more than any other medium had done before bizarrely 

[sne]

I remember South Park did an episode on the surgery part of this years and years ago. Can't remember the details but it was about Mr Garrison wanting to become a woman, one of the kids wanted to be taller to play basketball and one of the kids dad wanted to be a dolphin.

Not sure how that episode would hold up against the current ideas.

[Follyfoot]

8 minutes ago, sne said:

I remember South Park did an episode on the surgery part of this years and years ago. Can't remember the details but it was about Mr Garrison wanting to become a woman, one of the kids wanted to be taller to play basketball and one of the kids dad wanted to be a dolphin.

Not sure how that episode would hold up against the current ideas.

As badly as they did then I would imagine

[sne]

Just now, Follyfoot said:

As badly as they did then I would imagine

I'd imagine much worse now.

[Follyfoot]

Just now, sne said:

I'd imagine much worse now.

They have always maintained that the content should not be viewed by anyone in all fairness

[sharkyvilla]

I have to say when Cartman called Kyle's dad a Jewphin in that episode I laughed my tits off.

[Mark Albrighton]

Where does non binary, Sam Smith and the “refer to me as ‘they’” discussion fall in the transgender discussion or is that a bit more of an offshoot?

In the practical terms, like examples mentioned before, sporting activities, changing rooms, public toilets....is this even more of a minefield in relation to non binary people? To me it seems like it would be, but like others on here, it’s not an area that I can claim to be an expert in.

[TheAuthority]

There's a fantastic documentary on Netflix called "Disclosure" which was extremely educational and really helped me understand some of the issues faced by those in the trans community. Definitely worth a look for anyone who would like to learn.

 

[Chindie]

31 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Where does non binary, Sam Smith and the “refer to me as ‘they’” discussion fall in the transgender discussion or is that a bit more of an offshoot?

In the practical terms, like examples mentioned before, sporting activities, changing rooms, public toilets....is this even more of a minefield in relation to non binary people? To me it seems like it would be, but like others on here, it’s not an area that I can claim to be an expert in.

Related but different.

The non binary thing is more an identity matter. Basically built around the concept of gender being a spectrum that doesn't fall into the simple binary of 'male' and 'female'.

You can be transgender and non-binary, or transgender and binary. It's just a matter of acknowledging that for some people, they feel they have both male and female gender traits, or indeed neither.