Chindie Posted November 13, 2020 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 13, 2020 53 minutes ago, rjw63 said: Search on the works system will be fine won't it? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted November 14, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 12/11/2020 at 00:22, LondonLax said: You could say that about any disorder I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted November 14, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 12/11/2020 at 18:55, HanoiVillan said: We also need to tackle the 'predators in the bathroom' trope head on. The evidence is clear that this is not a statistically-significant concern Trope's an interesting word to use. Obviously the overall number of trans people is a tiny proportion of the population, but if you look at Women's prisons, with a 1% trans population, sexual assault figures show trans people (former males) responsible for a disporportionate nearly 6% of sexual assaults on inmates, within them. SO concern over the danger (perceived or real) of women being attacked by males/former males accessing women's facilities isn't entirely misplaced, and voicing those concerns shouldn't lead to accusations of hate/TERF etc. That way madness lies. On the social medias, many people advocating trans rights also appear extremely aggressive towards people who don't hold exactly the same views as they do - people supposedly campaigning for tolerance and equality actively being intolerant towards others. Of course that's social media, and it's full of angry bells, from football fans to political stuff. But still... The progress of protecting both women and trans people from danger, discrimination, disadvantage surely has to involve a more nuanced and tolerant level of debate than seems to take place in wider society. When this sort of thing Quote I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men. So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth. Brings about an avalanche of cancel culture and abuse, there's a problem getting in the way of solving a problem. People don't need to agree with her view, but the reaction to what is a genuine concern for other people is utterly ludicrous and counter productive. or TL:DR - just be nice to people, whatever their orientation/race/gender/sex/.... Start from there and there's a chance. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, blandy said: When this sort of thing Brings about an avalanche of cancel culture and abuse Well, sure, it would be surprising if people were angry about the banalities quoted in those two paragraphs. That isn't what people are angry about, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 People should be allowed to be identified as whatever they like. Just like how i identify myself as a handsome greek god. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 14, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: t would be surprising if people were angry about the banalities quoted in those two paragraphs. That isn't what people are angry about, though. I didn't quote the whole thing, obviously, because the site rules and because it contains very bad word that people called her. I'm interested as to what you think in the post she wrote people are angry about with good cause, because I can see nothing "hateful" in there at all. I think she comes across (and I don't read her books or watch her films) as caring, both for people generally and in terms of caring about an issue. She seems kindly towards people, and aware that the subject of transgender folk and what surrounds it is incredibly "heated". I thought she trod carefully and gets her perspective across, without remotely being antagonistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Interestingly enough bathrooms in Scandinavia are typically set up differently to bathrooms in the UK (or the US or Australia). Here everywhere you go the ‘bathrooms’ are a row of doors to small rooms, each with its own sink, mirror, dryer and toilet (a bit like the disabled toilet in the UK). Each room is just marked as a toilet, there’s no male or female ‘bathrooms’ with stalls or rows of washbasins etc It’s one way of taking the issue of gender off the table. A bit of a pain in the arse at bars though with men having to wait in the same slow queue as women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 14, 2020 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 14, 2020 One wonders what percentage of sexual offences are committed by trans individuals in normal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chindie said: One wonders what percentage of sexual offences are committed by trans individuals in normal life. All of em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 I've never been able to understand transgender, but I've met a few through my work in mental health, and they can be endearingly human. Who would've thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 14, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Chindie said: One wonders what percentage of sexual offences are committed by trans individuals in normal life. It’s going to be tiny, I mean there are statistically few trans people. But I don’t think that was JK Rowling’s line at all when she wrote her blog. She pointed out that “A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this”. And then worried that this situation could lead to non trans people using that to perv and prey in women’s and girls changing rooms and so on. Sure the numbers will be small, but the consequences of any sex attack are not small. I think there was a labour MP who raised examples of this happening, possibly Stella Creasy? it’s uncomfortable because people will think even raising the concern looks like equating trans people with sex attackers, which is not the case, nor the argument being made. Male Sex attackers using (possibly bad) law aimed at helping equality to attack, or legally perv on women is the concern. I’m none of those so can’t judge the scope of the worry compared to the risk. But I wouldn’t abuse and insult those people who are concerned and worried, I’d want to get them assured and not stressed and safe as can be, without discriminating against genuine trans people. See if the law can be made better. the situation in prisons is different again, because obviously sentenced sex criminals are placed amongst the prison population, increasing the risk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 14/11/2020 at 17:55, Demitri_C said: People should be allowed to be identified as whatever they like. Just like how i identify myself as a handsome greek god. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 16, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 14/11/2020 at 20:21, blandy said: It’s going to be tiny, I mean there are statistically few trans people. I'm always amazed by how many trans people there are in the UK - best estimates have it at around half a million, about one Liverpool sized population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 If a transgender murders someone would they go to a male prison or female prison? Lets say they were born a woman and then identified themself as a man where would they go? Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: If a transgender murders someone would they go to a male prison or female prison? Lets say they were born a woman and then identified themself as a man where would they go? Just curious Planning a murder are you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: If a transgender murders someone would they go to a male prison or female prison? Lets say they were born a woman and then identified themself as a man where would they go? Just curious It depends whether they are imprisoned in Scotland, or in England or Wales. The Scottish prison service states that the ‘social gender in which the person in custody is living should be fully respected regardless of whether or not the person in custody provides any evidence of having a gender recognition certificate’ (ref: http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/Publications/Publication-2561.aspx); in other words, transgender prisoners self-certify their gender. The situation in England and Wales used to be that trans prisoners needed to present a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to go to the prison of their social gender, but following the deaths of two trans prisoners in men's prisons the guidelines were loosened. A summary is as follows: 'The new policy guidelines, Prison Service Instruction 17/2016 states that “all transgender prisoners (irrespective of prison location) must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify”. Such prisoners must be asked their view of the part of the prison estate that reflects this; however a decision to locate them in a prison which does not accord with their legal gender can only be made following a Transgender Case Board. Those who wish to be placed in a prison location which is not consistent with their legally recognised gender must provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify. Assessments will be made on a case by case basis.' (ref: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7420/) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 For anyone struggling with this argument I always recommend It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia, Season 13, Episode 6, "The Gang Solves The Bathroom Problem" which clears everything right up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: It depends whether they are imprisoned in Scotland, or in England or Wales. The Scottish prison service states that the ‘social gender in which the person in custody is living should be fully respected regardless of whether or not the person in custody provides any evidence of having a gender recognition certificate’ (ref: http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/Publications/Publication-2561.aspx); in other words, transgender prisoners self-certify their gender. The situation in England and Wales used to be that trans prisoners needed to present a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to go to the prison of their social gender, but following the deaths of two trans prisoners in men's prisons the guidelines were loosened. A summary is as follows: 'The new policy guidelines, Prison Service Instruction 17/2016 states that “all transgender prisoners (irrespective of prison location) must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify”. Such prisoners must be asked their view of the part of the prison estate that reflects this; however a decision to locate them in a prison which does not accord with their legal gender can only be made following a Transgender Case Board. Those who wish to be placed in a prison location which is not consistent with their legally recognised gender must provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify. Assessments will be made on a case by case basis.' (ref: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7420/) Thanks thats really fascinating to know 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 16, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2020 2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I'm always amazed by how many trans people there are in the UK - best estimates have it at around half a million, about one Liverpool sized population. I think "best" is doing quite a lot of work there, but even at 0.87% that number is statistically small. I may be (OK I am) unrepresentative, but I've lived a while and have only ever met one trans person full gender re-assignment, Op, everything. Maybe I've unknowingly met others, and maybe people younger than me have a higher %age. I dunno. It doesn't matter either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 16, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: I think "best" is doing quite a lot of work there, but even at 0.87% that number is statistically small. I may be (OK I am) unrepresentative, but I've lived a while and have only ever met one trans person full gender re-assignment, Op, everything. Maybe I've unknowingly met others, and maybe people younger than me have a higher %age. I dunno. It doesn't matter either way. I'm about the same, I know one trans person which is why that figure always amazes me - Stonewall have it up to 600,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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