Transgenderism

[maqroll]

In Native American and Polynesian societies, they have traditionally had "two spirit" people among them, what we'd call transgender or at least noticeably effeminate today. The difference is that in those societies, the two spirit people were revered. In most other parts of the world, they have been and still are persecuted. 

Respected feminist scholars like Camille Paglia suggest that transgenderism is a sign of cultural collapse, but that's probably her Catholic upbringing shading her views. 

In reality, trans people have always been with us in western society. Only lately can they get reassignment surgery and demand their rights. 

It's interesting that even very liberal women sound reactionary when talking about transitioning or fully transitioned men-to-women. They feel like these men haven't paid their dues and will never know what being a "real woman" is about.

Paglia-

 

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, maqroll said:

 

It's interesting that even very liberal women sound reactionary when talking about transitioning or fully transitioned men-to-women. They feel like these men haven't paid their dues and will never know what being a "real woman" is about.

 

Germaine Greer is another one. 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by LondonLax

[Risso]

On 14/11/2020 at 14:30, blandy said:

Trope's an interesting word to use. Obviously the overall number of trans people is a tiny proportion of the population, but if you look at Women's prisons, with a 1% trans population, sexual assault figures show trans people (former males) responsible for a disporportionate nearly 6% of sexual assaults on inmates, within them. SO concern over the danger (perceived or real) of women being attacked by males/former males accessing women's facilities isn't entirely misplaced, and voicing those concerns shouldn't lead to accusations of hate/TERF etc. That way madness lies. On the social medias, many people advocating trans rights also appear extremely aggressive towards people who don't hold exactly the same views as they do - people supposedly campaigning for tolerance and equality actively being intolerant towards others. Of course that's social media, and it's full of angry bells, from football fans to political stuff. But still...

The progress of protecting both women and trans people from danger, discrimination, disadvantage surely has to involve a more nuanced and tolerant level of debate than seems to take place in wider society.

When this sort of thing

Brings about an avalanche of cancel culture and abuse, there's a problem getting in the way of solving a problem. People don't need to agree with her view, but the reaction to what is a genuine concern for other people is utterly ludicrous and counter productive.

or TL:DR - just be nice to people, whatever their orientation/race/gender/sex/.... Start from there and there's a chance.

It's mostly just a case of live and live let, but with trans rights, as opposed to equal opportunities struggles in the past, there's a small chance that the rights of trans people could cause issues for hard fought women's rights.  It may be a small chance percnetage wise in the example of prisons that you give, but you can make a similar argument for sport.  Is it right that somebody who used to be a man and the physical advanatges that often brings can go and compete with female athletes in a given sport?  It might happen so infrequently as to not be much of a problem, but that's not to say it shouldn't be able to be debated without unpleasantness on both sides.

[LondonLax]

Topical

Quote

A transgender man has lost his legal battle to be registered as his child’s father or parent in the UK after the supreme court refused to consider his final appeal.

McConnell began medical transition with testosterone therapy in 2013, and in 2014 underwent a double mastectomy. His passport and NHS records were changed to show he was male, but he retained his female reproductive system. He gave birth after suspending his hormone treatment and allowing his menstrual cycle to restart.

Both the high court, in September 2019, and the appeal court, in April 2020, ruled that even though he was considered a man by law and had a gender recognition certificate to prove it, he could not appear on his child’s birth certificate as “father” or parent. McConnell had argued this breached the Human Rights Act.

In the appeal court, Lord Burnett came down in favour of the right of a child born to a transgender parent to know the biological reality of its birth, rather than the parent’s right to be recognised on the birth certificate in their legal gender.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/16/trans-man-loses-uk-legal-battle-to-register-as-his-childs-father

[TheAuthority]

7 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Germaine Greer is another one. 

 

If I understood that correctly, her argument is that Caitlin Jenner (Olympic athlete etc. think Linford Christie as a UK comparison) became a woman, including gender reassignment surgery so that she could get the same attention as the women Kardashians? Anyone that could possibly consider that as a stance is a f*****g idiot.

Germaine Greer has for years lived off stuff she wrote decades ago. She's an anti-intellectual and I can't believe she still gets any airtime to witter on and trot out her uninformed drivel.

[Seat68]

It really does come to something when a group of exclusively male football fans on a football forum are more accepting of trans people than noted feminists. 

[LondonLax]

40 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

It really does come to something when a group of exclusively male football fans on a football forum are more accepting of trans people than noted feminists. 

It's interesting and what makes it such a complex discussion. I think the ladies often feel more personally threatened than we do about this stuff (whether real or just personal perception).

[lapal_fan]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

It's interesting and what makes it such a complex discussion. I think the ladies often feel more personally threatened than we do about this stuff (whether real or just personal perception).

I mean, it's hardly surprising.  The amount of shit men put women through on occasion is terrifying (and vice versa obviously).  So to "dress it up" as a woman and then be expected to treat her the same is confusing, especially when in the backs of their minds the real women must have that niggling voice. 

As much as I don't realise it, being a woman is pretty tough all things considered, certainly more simple being a dude.

Don't "yea but war" me.

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, Seat68 said:

It really does come to something when a group of exclusively male football fans on a football forum are more accepting of trans people than noted feminists. 

I do find it hilarous when i see on tv debates you see feminists lose their shit against transgenders

[TheAuthority]

HBO doc following 4 kids over 5 years. Looks like it could be very educational for those of us with little exposure to those in the trans community.

 

[StefanAVFC]

Even on this forum 

[Davkaus]

37 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Even on this forum 

I don't see the problem with someone asking the question, it's not like it's descended in to "PC gone mad". It's been man of the match forever, and at some point it has changed in the media to "player", although I've never heard anyone actually use that phrase.

It's not a problem, I can see why it'd surprise someone though. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Davkaus

[StefanAVFC]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I don't see the problem with someone asking the question, it's not like it's descended in to "PC gone mad". It's been man of the match forever, and at some point it has changed in the media to "player", although I've never heard anyone actually use that phrase.

It's not a problem, I can see why it'd surprise someone though. 

I don't see an issue with asking the question, but the phrasing of it was a little unneeded? Trannies or something cool like that. As if Transgenderism is a trend? I don't know, I'm not particularly snowflakey but it was a little badly worded for me.

[Davkaus]

I can see why you'd read it in a dismissive tone, but I think there's a big jump between not really getting or caring about trans issues, and using the offensive term you've used in your post (and which the poster you're referring to did not).

I think it's a little unfair to link to a page criticising another poster that may not frequent OT, then put words in to their mouth that are much harsher than what they said.  

Edited November 19, 2020 by Davkaus

[StefanAVFC]

40 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I can see why you'd read it in a dismissive tone, but I think there's a big jump between not really getting or caring about trans issues, and using the offensive term you've used in your post (and which the poster you're referring to did not).

I think it's a little unfair to link to a page criticising another poster that may not frequent OT, then put words in to their mouth that are much harsher than what they said.  

That was a poor paraphrase, hands up to that.

However, we still have a lot of this dismissive/casual rhetoric which is harmful too IMO.

[icouldtelltheworld]

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread, but I will as I think that I may be able to make a few points that are worthy of consideration. As a disclaimer, I've not read through all of the replies on this thread, so apologies if any of this goes over old ground - I'd like to point out that from what I've read through there seems to be a good and reasonable standard of debate here on what is a very sensitive issue. It's really refreshing to see when you consider some of the vitriolic discourse that takes place on other platforms.

There are a few points that I think are worth bringing up in relation to the wider trans debate that is currently playing out in society. This is an issue that I feel we have only begun to touch the surface of, and I imagine in 20 years time we will look back on our debates around the topic and will probably conclude that there was a fair deal of ignorance and bad-faith arguments from both sides. I'm certainly no expert on trans issues, but I have tried to follow the gender debate and to approach it as rationally as I can.

The first thing to note is that we used to talk of people being transexual, whereas we now talk about people being transgender. This is a significant shift in the language. As I'm sure has been covered in detail elsewhere, there is a distinction to be drawn between biological sex and gender roles, which are generally considered to be a product of social construction. The degree to which gender is socially constructed is up for debate - I think that most of us would probably think it's fair to state that gender roles are partial social constructions with at least some basis in biology. Some adherents of gender theory argue that the idea of biological sex itself is socially constructed - this is pretty loopy thinking IMO, but your view may differ from mine.

It is important to mention here that many transexuals who have been through sex-reassignment surgery are critical of gender ideology, and reject the premise that gender identity is the central defining issue in the trans experience (I'd be happy to provide links to some videos etc. if anyone would be interested in hearing those voices).

It is important to look at what groups such as Stonewall and the more vocal trans rights advocates are campaigning for. They are arguing for a demedicalisation of gender dysphoria and for the right of transgender individuals to 'self-ID'. In layman's terms, they want to remove the need for formal diagnosis of gender dysphoria and allow people to self-determine their gender identity. This is already the case in some other countries (Ireland is a good nearby example), where people have the right 'identify' as being of the opposite gender if that matches their 'gender identity'. At this point, the person must legally be treated as being of their self-declared gender. The introduction of self-ID was recently rejected by the UK government - I don't often agree with our current Tory overlords, but I do agree with their decision on self-ID.

As we are now concerned primarily with gender and not biological sex, there is no requirement to undergo any reassignment surgery. All that a trans woman (or trans man, for that matter) needs to do is to begin living as their preferred gender. I have two transgender friends, and am largely of the opinion that we should live and let live.

However, in a situation where someone can legally change their gender without any particular medical or professional process in place, you can begin to see why some women and women's groups are concerned about the capacity for changes in the way we treat gender dysphoria to begin impinging of hard-won sex-based female rights. I think the sensationalisation of this issue doesn't help - the point isn't that trans people are a threat to women per se, but rather that a significant minority of men are a significant danger to women, and a system of self-ID is potentially open to abuse. That women in prisons (the vast majority of whom have experienced abuse of some kind) and those in domestic abuse shelters may be wary of male-bodied people in single sex spaces is IMO fair enough - it is an unfortunate fact of the world that a significant number of male-bodied people do pose a threat to women, and there is clearly a risk of retraumatising survivors of physical/sexual abuse by admitting them into single-sex spaces.

This is where the issue becomes tricky, and a you get into a situation where trade-offs need to take place. There are factors within this debate where giving rights to cisgendered people takes away the rights of transgendered people, and vice versa.

We must also note some of the other arguments being made by Stonewall and other trans-advocacy groups and individuals. A key issue here is 'affirmation'. What certain trans-rights groups and individuals are advocating for is that people who present with gender dysphoria should be affirmed in their new gender identity as the main course of treatment. What this means, is that 'gender non-confirming' children should not be challenged, but rather affirmed that yes, they do indeed have gender dysphoria and that a medical route of puberty blockers and eventual reassignment therapy could be what is needed. This is a very hot topic and there have been dozens of resignations of doctors from the Tavistock and Portman NHS gender clinic around this issue. A growing number of people are seeking to 'detransition', and I'd imagine there will be lawsuits over this over the coming years.

This is something that JK Rowling alluded to her 'transphobic' essay - given the propensity of teenagers to go through phases and experiment with things like their sexuality, it is not too much of a stretch to consider that they may also experiment with their gender identity. In most cases, it could be argued that no medicalisation is needed and things will work out the way they work out. There is also some fairly troubling evidence to children with autism and certain other conditions may be more prone to gender dysphoria - it is far from certain that an affirmation of gender identity is the best course of action here.

It is not just feminists that are concerned about affirmation - a number of my gay friends have concerns too. There is a risk that children who would have grown up to be effeminate gay men or butch lesbian women are being set on a path of gender reassignment that may not be appropriate for them. Some gender dysphoria doctors have hypothesised that the recent growth in young people presenting with dysphoria may be driven by their parents' internalised homophobia.

This is a topic that we need to have a reasoned and open debate about, I don't think idiots like Germaine Greer are helpful, but nor do I think that the shutting down of any questioning of the accepted tenets of gender theory as 'transphobic' helps either. Unfortunately, this has become an issue in the wider culture wars and I think a large number of people on both sides of the debate are merely picking sides and shutting down reasonable debate.

There is an interesting and detailed article here from a doctor who resigned from the Tavistock centre that people may wish to read through:

https://quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

As a final point - it's refreshing to have a space on the internet where these things can be spoken about rationally and sensibly without the hatred that you encounter elsewhere. If we can agree on one thing I'm sure it's that VT is a great place to be.

[Chindie]

Eurgh.

[Davkaus]

They're right to point out that the guidance for recording of hate crime is absurd, and almost certainly the reason that we've seen it spike rather than because of there genuinely being a significant increase of what people would usually consider to be hate crimes. Time and a place though, eh fellas. 

They've posted the guidance I'm referring to. Basically if someone says they've been the victim of a hate crime, that's the end of the matter as far as reporting it as a hate crime goes. It's a fairly trivial matter in the grand scheme of things, and hijacking today to push that message probably gives an insight into their true colours.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Davkaus

[icouldtelltheworld]

The outcome of this trial 

Quote

A 23-year-old woman who is taking legal action against an NHS gender clinic says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager. 

on Tuesday may have a significant impact on the prescription of puberty blockers and treatment of gender dysphoria in children under the age of 17. Legal action has been brought against the Tavistock gender clinic by an ex-patient who now regrets undergoing hormone treatment and claims that they should have been challenged more vigorously by health professionals. At the heart of the issue is the degree to which children can give consent to treatment and the suitability of the affirmation model advocated by groups such as Mermaids and Stonewall. As with so much of this topic, this is a messy and complex issue that will likely be the source of much debate for a long time to come.

Edited November 29, 2020 by blandy
Extract Quote added

[sne]