Scott Hogan

[Stevo985]

22 hours ago, rodders0223 said:

Saying that, if Kodjia (the lad who has put in performances Hogan could only dream of) misses a single chance, all I hear is useless this, lazy this, selfish that.
It is bizarre, and it does make me wonder why certain people, shall we say, are singled out for abuse and certain ones are not.

This is exactly what I keep saying annoys me about this thread.

We have players like Kodjia and Adomah who have had amazing seasons for us, but are now on the rubbish pile with some fans because they've not been on the best of form lately.

But Hogan, who has given the club nothing (despite again his admirable attitude and effort), is given a million chances by some fans and every bad performance excused for one reason or another.

Doesn't add up to me. And I suspect DDID's first line is absolutely a factor.

[Mark Albrighton]

I think in part, Kodjia being more flamboyant, in his talent and his personality is a factor. 

I can imagine more people see themselves in a Hogan-esque player. Not particularly outlandish in his style, someone who tries but his limitations let him down. They could never be a Kodjia, but being Hogan is somehow more realistic, if that makes any sense?

They probably see Kodjia the same way they saw that kid at school who didn’t go to practice but was guaranteed a place in the side.

There possibly is an element of race in there, but I think in the main it’s not intended as such. At least I’d hope so. Maybe more lazy stereotyping than anything else.

[sne]

Sure there might be people who have problems with them being foreigners.

I don't rate Hogan, but my issue with Kodija going forward as a club is that I don't think he is suited to the pressing game we are trying to play.

As much as creating something out of nothing and having flair is nice, the things Abraham adds when he plays, both with and without the ball is vital to us.

Adonah is also too much hit and miss, but he adds a bit more defensively. Both of them are on big-ish contracts and around 30 so we need to upgrade.

As for Hogan, meh. Get rid if anyone is willing to pay a few quid and take over his bloated contract. He is very limited even if he should regain a bit of confidence.

[Czechlad]

5 hours ago, Nigel said:

35k wont be too much of a jump for a premier club!

Slippery slope to go down. If your 3rd choice striker is the highest paid player on the team, a lot of the other starters will suddenly be asking for more money. It's like Davis being paid 40k while Kodjia and Tammy are making 20k. Wouldn't make much sense. 

[Keyblade]

6 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

This is exactly what I keep saying annoys me about this thread.

We have players like Kodjia and Adomah who have had amazing seasons for us, but are now on the rubbish pile with some fans because they've not been on the best of form lately.

But Hogan, who has given the club nothing (despite again his admirable attitude and effort), is given a million chances by some fans and every bad performance excused for one reason or another.

Doesn't add up to me. And I suspect DDID's first line is absolutely a factor.

Thought I was the only one who noticed it. It amazes me how quickly fans turned on Kodjia, the man who gave us the brilliant 16/17 season, but have all the time in the world for Scott Hogan who did absolutely eff all in a Villa shirt in 2 years.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I mean look, we know racism exists. Both in society and particularly (I would say) in football. It's not as simple as 'everyone who doesn't rate Kodjia is a racist', far from it, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that. As much as I love watching him play I find him frustrating too. However as an example there is a guy who sits next to me who is always banging on about how lazy Adomah is. Albert Adomah. Lazy.

Now obviously the vast majority of fans don't believe that for one second, but if you are susceptible to groupthink and you hear it often enough from a few people in the crowd, that kind of blatantly racist opinion can spread to the point where one or two instances of switching off or appearing to not care can tag a player for life. It is far more prevalent with black players, it's a racist trope so that should come as no great surprise. Think of how African football nations are presented. Senegal in the World Cup being a recent example, a more hard working and combative side you will rarely find presented as a group of individuals playing care free. 

Back to Kodjia, I mean he IS lazy at times, or lacking in tactical intelligence perhaps. As a friend of mine would put it, he's a bit of a dolly daydreamer. I think we can all accept that is evidence based. However, the difference comes when people are blind to what he tangibly brings because of it. His switching off is less forgivable than if he were a white player, particularly a hard running player like Scott Hogan without half the talent on the ball, and his deficiencies are highlighted further. As John Barnes rightly said the truth is we are all susceptible to it, it's social engineering. Until we change that at a fundamental level, it is always going to exist sadly. The best we can do is to talk about it and combat it on an individual level. 

[Tomaszk]

13 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I mean look, we know racism exists. Both in society and particularly (I would say) in football. It's not as simple as 'everyone who doesn't rate Kodjia is a racist', far from it, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that. As much as I love watching him play I find him frustrating too. However as an example there is a guy who sits next to me who is always banging on about how lazy Adomah is. Albert Adomah. Lazy.

Now obviously the vast majority of fans don't believe that for one second, but if you are susceptible to groupthink and you hear it often enough from a few people in the crowd, that kind of blatantly racist opinion can spread to the point where one or two instances of switching off or appearing to not care can tag a player for life. It is far more prevalent with black players, it's a racist trope so that should come as no great surprise. Think of how African football nations are presented. Senegal in the World Cup being a recent example, a more hard working and combative side you will rarely find presented as a group of individuals playing care free. 

Back to Kodjia, I mean he IS lazy at times, or lacking in tactical intelligence perhaps. As a friend of mine would put it, he's a bit of a dolly daydreamer. I think we can all accept that is evidence based. However, the difference comes when people are blind to what he tangibly brings because of it. His switching off is less forgivable than if he were a white player, particularly a hard running player like Scott Hogan without half the talent on the ball, and his deficiencies are highlighted further. As John Barnes rightly said the truth is we are all susceptible to it, it's social engineering. Until we change that at a fundamental level, it is always going to exist sadly. The best we can do is to talk about it and combat it on an individual level. 

Can't recall much of the coverage aside from that clip of them all dancing in the warm-up. That was spread around a lot because it was funny and unique, and probably contributed more than it should. I would hope it was more a combination of pundits not knowing a huge amount outside of the squad's star players, and seeing them all dancing and basing their usual opening cliches around it.

Wouldn't surprise me if fans loudly think the way you're referencing. It is still something a lot cannot get beyond which is a shame.

Last few times I've seen Hogan, he hasn't worked hard. He's driven me up the wall because he's ambled around, not shown for the ball, and lost it when it does reach him.

[Dave J]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

This is exactly what I keep saying annoys me about this thread.

We have players like Kodjia and Adomah who have had amazing seasons for us, but are now on the rubbish pile with some fans because they've not been on the best of form lately.

But Hogan, who has given the club nothing (despite again his admirable attitude and effort), is given a million chances by some fans and every bad performance excused for one reason or another.

Doesn't add up to me. And I suspect DDID's first line is absolutely a factor.

I'm kind of struggling with this tbh.

Would you care to repost who has excused Hogan's performances or as you say  has afforded millions of chances to him ?

maybe I was off line ? But seriously I can't recall anyone doing this - certainly not for any significant period of time.

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, Tomaszk said:

Can't recall much of the coverage aside from that clip of them all dancing in the warm-up. That was spread around a lot because it was funny and unique, and probably contributed more than it should. I would hope it was more a combination of pundits not knowing a huge amount outside of the squad's star players, and seeing them all dancing and basing their usual opening cliches around it.

Wouldn't surprise me if fans loudly think the way you're referencing. It is still something a lot cannot get beyond which is a shame.

Last few times I've seen Hogan, he hasn't worked hard. He's driven me up the wall because he's ambled around, not shown for the ball, and lost it when it does reach him.

Couple of articles to get into here 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/japan-vs-senegal-world-cup-2018-preview-alan-sugar-racist-tweet-team-news-latest-tactics-a8413501.html

Quote

Cisse’s men outclassed and out-thought Poland. They were smarter in midfield, where Idrissa Gueye and Alfred N’Diaye gave Grzegorz Krychowiak the sort of afternoon that would make many a man jack this football caper in for something less stressful. They were sharper in attack, where M’Baye Niang’s nimble thinking to score the second goal contrasted starkly with the lumbering Lewandowski.

In short, it was a controlled performance, cerebral even, a victory from clearer heads rather than particularly any significant physical advantage.

How Koulibaly justified Arsenal, Chelsea and United transfer interest

And it was the sort of game that you might hope will dispel the standard stereotypes about African teams. You’ll be familiar with the language generally used as a default when discussing black players: primarily defined by strength, pace, power, general athleticism etc, rarely their skill or mental processes. If you’re somehow not cognisant of this sort of thing, on SB Nation Zito Madu gave a quick rundown of the sort of words deployed, including a bingo card of key phrases 

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/6/19/17480036/sadio-mane-senegal-poland-world-cup

Quote

It was very confusing watching Senegal play against Poland. Before the game even started, commentators like Slaven Bilić deduced that Senegal needed to rely on their “pace and power” to have a chance against Poland. Yet once the game began, it didn’t seem to bear out.

Senegal outplayed Poland and won, 2-1, by playing direct, composed soccer, relying on sharp passing and technical dribbling, while barely allowing their opponents anything on the other end. It was Poland, in fact, that employed long balls and physical play later in the second half to give themselves a way back into the game.

As annoying as it always is, it’s never surprising to see commentators fall back on coded language when they have to discuss black players, especially Africans, in soccer. Before Senegal had even kicked the ball, they were being described not by their skill, creativity, or their decision making, but with the standard words you hear about African teams: Pace, power, physicality, raw talent, tactical naivety, disorganization, swagger, and all the other terms that are part of the same old language that pretends to compliment black players by reducing them to their physical bodies and derides them for not mentally understanding the game. It’s the historical idea of the black man as a senseless brute, repackaged in sporting language.

You're probably right about Hogan to be fair, my sister has always maintained he does the bare minimum off the ball whilst I've always had him down as a bit of runner. That may well be my own biases kicking in. 

[Stevo985]

57 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Couple of articles to get into here 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/japan-vs-senegal-world-cup-2018-preview-alan-sugar-racist-tweet-team-news-latest-tactics-a8413501.html

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/6/19/17480036/sadio-mane-senegal-poland-world-cup

You're probably right about Hogan to be fair, my sister has always maintained he does the bare minimum off the ball whilst I've always had him down as a bit of runner. That may well be my own biases kicking in. 

That sort of thing is rife. 

Words like “beast” are always applied to black players. Benteke is a beast. Drogba is a beast. Lukaku, what a beast. 

You rarely hear that word used for a big white player. 

[Thug]

14 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

That sort of thing is rife. 

Words like “beast” are always applied to black players. Benteke is a beast. Drogba is a beast. Lukaku, what a beast. 

You rarely hear that word used for a big white player. 

I dunno.

 

id rather be called a beast than a lump.

[Stevo985]

38 minutes ago, Thug said:

I dunno.

 

id rather be called a beast than a lump.

Yeah you’ve kind of missed the point there

[villaglint]

18 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

That sort of thing is rife. 

Words like “beast” are always applied to black players. Benteke is a beast. Drogba is a beast. Lukaku, what a beast. 

You rarely hear that word used for a big white player. 

That's a good point and not one I'd thought about before. I do remember calling Steve Fletcher of Bournemouth when they were rubbish fame a beast but its definitely a rarity thats true. 

To come back more specifically to Mr Hogan I've always been dissappointed by how weak he is given that he looks like a pretty stocky and well built sort of fella. You see people bouncing off Raheem Sterling and you realise its not about size but the way you use it. Scotty really ain't using it right. Not sure I've ever seen him win a 50/50 which for striker who is playing on his own upfront more often than not its not helping him be a successful football player to say the least. 

 

 

 

[Thug]

23 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah you’ve kind of missed the point there

Honestly, I really didn’t miss the point.

I just don’t agree with the sentiments of the point you’re making.

 

[MaVilla]

20 hours ago, villaglint said:

That's a good point and not one I'd thought about before. I do remember calling Steve Fletcher of Bournemouth when they were rubbish fame a beast but its definitely a rarity thats true. 

To come back more specifically to Mr Hogan I've always been dissappointed by how weak he is given that he looks like a pretty stocky and well built sort of fella. You see people bouncing off Raheem Sterling and you realise its not about size but the way you use it. Scotty really ain't using it right. Not sure I've ever seen him win a 50/50 which for striker who is playing on his own upfront more often than not its not helping him be a successful football player to say the least. 

 

 

 

Same for ronaldinho, he was quite tall and wirey but oh boy could he shield the ball and roll players like they weren't there.

[Rob182]

I'm struggling to get on board with this racism angle around Kodjia/ Hogan/ Adomah etc. In my opinion, if someone calls Adomah lazy, it's because they're an idiot. Not because they're a racist.

Unless you notice that a fan has been needlessly angry towards black players, and also seen the same fan needlessly excusing white players, then I find it had to simply label someone a racist for having an invalid opinion.

[alreadyexists]

On 08/05/2019 at 19:31, Stevo985 said:

That sort of thing is rife. 

Words like “beast” are always applied to black players. Benteke is a beast. Drogba is a beast. Lukaku, what a beast. 

You rarely hear that word used for a big white player. 

You’re quite right. It links to the old environmental determinism argument that’s been widely discredited scientifically but still persists in the everyday. “Africans are good at running, but white Europeans are better at swimming” - when it’s everything to do with the fact that Olympic swimming facilities cost millions to build and European nations tend to be much richer, but anyone can run anywhere, so no infrastructure is needed.

Off topic perhaps but there is more than unites us than divides us. These subtle narratives that run through media articles and sports commentary are disturbing precisely because they are subtle. Overt racism is often tackled head-on, at least in this country, but the undertones can often slip through the net. 

[Lord Willard]

1 hour ago, alreadyexists said:

You’re quite right. It links to the old environmental determinism argument that’s been widely discredited scientifically but still persists in the everyday. “Africans are good at running, but white Europeans are better at swimming” - when it’s everything to do with the fact that Olympic swimming facilities cost millions to build and European nations tend to be much richer, but anyone can run anywhere, so no infrastructure is needed.

This is going completely off topic and I apologise.

I completely disagree. While you are right that European people have better local facilities for swimming over African countries. It's actually in the DNA to why White Europeans are better swimmers and not as good runners. 

White Europeans tend to store more fat and have better buoyance than black African males. Thats why they tend to be better swimmers. 

White Europeans run just as much as black Africans but why arent they as good runners at long distance or sprinting? Black Africans have better muscle density than white Europeans.

It has nothing to do with if you're rich or poor. 

If you said the same thing about horse riding, I'd agree, it would be a wealth division. 

 

 

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, Thug said:

Honestly, I really didn’t miss the point.

I just don’t agree with the sentiments of the point you’re making.

 

If you try explaining yourself then it might help.

Because as far as I can see you've missed it. 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Rob182 said:

I'm struggling to get on board with this racism angle around Kodjia/ Hogan/ Adomah etc. In my opinion, if someone calls Adomah lazy, it's because they're an idiot. Not because they're a racist.

Unless you notice that a fan has been needlessly angry towards black players, and also seen the same fan needlessly excusing white players, then I find it had to simply label someone a racist for having an invalid opinion.

I don't think anyone is doing that. Nobody is saying if you rate hogan but don't rate Kodjia you're racist.

It was more of a general point. 

I think fans in general are harsher to black players. It's not an explicit thing. It's not like someone is thinking "I hate black players so I"m going to be harsh to them". I think it's subconcious. But I do think it is a thing.