Scott Hogan

[Mic09]

11 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think anyone is doing that. Nobody is saying if you rate hogan but don't rate Kodjia you're racist.

It was more of a general point. 

I think fans in general are harsher to black players. It's not an explicit thing. It's not like someone is thinking "I hate black players so I"m going to be harsh to them". I think it's subconcious. But I do think it is a thing.

One for the racism thread I guess, but saying fans are harsher on black players is a massive generalisation. Over the last few years Westwood or Elphick, two very solid players got the treatment no Villa player should deserve. People were booing when Westwood he had the ball, it was bad. Now he is a successful PL player. Both of them got much worse stick than any black player we had (with the exception of Micah Richard or Bacuna, but that's for different reasons) 

I think there isn't a strong correlation between the skin colour and fan attitude, at least not in the 'average fan'.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Mic09

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

One for the racism thread I guess, but saying fans are harsher on black players is a massive generalisation. Over the last few years Westwood or Elphick, two very solid players got the treatment no Villa player should deserve. People were booing when Westwood he had the ball, it was bad. Now he is a successful PL player. Both of them got much worse stick than any black player we had (with the exception of Micah Richard or Bacuna, but that's for different reasons) 

I think there isn't a strong correlation between the skin colour and fan attitude, at least not in the 'average fan'.

Well I disagree. But it's not a Villa only point. It's football in general.

but you're right, there are other threads for this.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think anyone is doing that. Nobody is saying if you rate hogan but don't rate Kodjia you're racist.

It was more of a general point. 

I think fans in general are harsher to black players. It's not an explicit thing. It's not like someone is thinking "I hate black players so I"m going to be harsh to them". I think it's subconcious. But I do think it is a thing.

It could be. I do feel that way about Elmo sometimes. 

But in regards to Hogan I think some fans are forgiving because they feel he tries. Kodija on the hand can look very lethargic at times.

No fan will forgive a player that doesn’t give his all. 

[alreadyexists]

1 hour ago, Lord Willard said:

This is going completely off topic and I apologise.

I completely disagree. While you are right that European people have better local facilities for swimming over African countries. It's actually in the DNA to why White Europeans are better swimmers and not as good runners. 

White Europeans tend to store more fat and have better buoyance than black African males. Thats why they tend to be better swimmers. 

White Europeans run just as much as black Africans but why arent they as good runners at long distance or sprinting? Black Africans have better muscle density than white Europeans.

It has nothing to do with if you're rich or poor. 

If you said the same thing about horse riding, I'd agree, it would be a wealth division. 

 

 

Like you say, vastly off topic  

I don’t mean this insultingly in anyway, and totally respect your opinion, but I believe that this is scientifically speaking; nonsense, it is not in the DNA. There is nothing in “African DNA” that means they can’t be good swimmers, or poor runners, and there is nothing in European DNA that means they’re good at tennis, skiing or golf. If one could even isolate “African DNA” (which is basically exactly the same as European DNA, and the tiny, tiny differences which encode the small physical differences we can see, are much smaller than for example, the differences between one European and another genetically speaking.)

No point carrying on the debate in the Scott Hogan thread though! If you’re interested you should read A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived by Adam Rutherford, it’s fantastic and has a chapter on exactly this point. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by alreadyexists

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think anyone is doing that. Nobody is saying if you rate hogan but don't rate Kodjia you're racist.

It was more of a general point. 

I think fans in general are harsher to black players. It's not an explicit thing. It's not like someone is thinking "I hate black players so I"m going to be harsh to them". I think it's subconcious. But I do think it is a thing.

I don't.

...If you are talking about home fans?

I can think of many Black players in the past who could drown in the adulation they get from the fans....Tyrone Mings was swamped in Aston Hall Rd after the Norwich game.....Dwight Yorke was idolised as was Macca.

I think it's just a coincidence....Personally, I only see claret and Blue shirts.....I might witness a lazy claret and blue shirt with a name on the back, that's all......I think many of our fans are like me on that score.

Edited May 10, 2019 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

58 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

One for the racism thread I guess, but saying fans are harsher on black players is a massive generalisation. Over the last few years Westwood or Elphick, two very solid players got the treatment no Villa player should deserve. People were booing when Westwood he had the ball, it was bad. Now he is a successful PL player. Both of them got much worse stick than any black player we had (with the exception of Micah Richard or Bacuna, but that's for different reasons) 

I think there isn't a strong correlation between the skin colour and fan attitude, at least not in the 'average fan'.

Hourihane got absolutely destroyed recently. Is it because he is Irish? 

Do not underestimate the power of the sub conscious mind.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Hourihane got absolutely destroyed recently. Is it because he is Irish? 

Do not underestimate the power of the sub conscious mind.

No.....Its because he beat a Leeds player with a Shillelagh.

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't.

...If you are talking about home fans?

I can think of many Black players in the past who could drown in the adulation they get from the fans....Tyrone Mings was swamped in Aston Hall Rd after the Norwich game.....Dwight Yorke was idolised as was Macca.

I think it's just a coincidence....Personally, I only see claret and Blue shirts.....I might witness a lazy claret and blue shirt with a name on the back, that's all.

That’s not the same thing though. I’m not saying black players are never liked by the fans. Far from it. I’m saying black players are more easily labelled as lazy or other negative connotations. 

Kodjia, Adomah, Ayew, Benteke, Onomah. Just a few recent players who immediately spring to mind who were pretty regularly labelled as lazy by lots of people despite all performing admirably for us at various times. 

I’m struggling to think of a single white player who’s been labelled as lazy in that time. 

(And I don’t mean for single games. I mean lazy as a characteristic)

Edited May 10, 2019 by Stevo985

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

That’s not the same thing though. I’m not saying black players are never liked by the fans. Far from it. I’m saying black players are more easily labelled as lazy or other negative connotations. 

Kodjia, Adomah, Ayew, Benteke, Onomah. Just a few recent players who immediately spring to mind who were pretty regularly labelled as lazy by lots of people despite all performing admirably for us at various times. 

I’m struggling to think of a single white player who’s been labelled as lazy in that time. 

(And I don’t mean for single games. I mean lazy as a characteristic)

yeah, I get that.

Nigel Callaghan, just springs to mind, without taxing the brain.....Savo had a few detractors as did Baros...more inconsistency though,I guess.

I am still not sure it's because of the colour of their skin, maybe culture......but I would like to think its due to the manner in which they play.

Edited May 10, 2019 by TRO

[Mic09]

27 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Hourihane got absolutely destroyed recently. Is it because he is Irish? 

Do not underestimate the power of the sub conscious mind.

Hutton did too for a while, I guess it's his Brazilian heritage.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

Hutton did too for a while, I guess it's his Brazilian heritage.

Hutton is an awful example. 

Hes been absolutely toilet for 90% of his time at Villa yet the fans absolutely love him. 

If anything it proves my theory

[Mic09]

32 minutes ago, alreadyexists said:

Like you say, vastly off topic  

I don’t mean this insultingly in anyway, and totally respect your opinion, but I believe that this is scientifically speaking; nonsense, it is not in the DNA. There is nothing in “African DNA” that means they can’t be good swimmers, or poor runners, and there is nothing in European DNA that means they’re good at tennis, skiing or golf. If one could even isolate “African DNA” (which is basically exactly the same as European DNA, and the tiny, tiny differences which encode the small physical differences we can see, are much smaller than for example, the differences between one European and another genetically speaking.)

No point carrying on the debate in the Scott Hogan thread though! If you’re interested you should read A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived by Adam Rutherford, it’s fantastic and has a chapter on exactly this point. 

This is a far more interesting conversation than Scott Hogan haha

What about sprinters? I am no scientist and haven't read much of the literature on the subject, however there is a massive disproportion when it comes to fastest people on earth - they are black. Do you think it's due to upbringing and culture? Or natural predisposition for running?

Please tag me in on the proper topic to discuss this

[Mic09]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Hutton is an awful example. 

Hes been absolutely toilet for 90% of his time at Villa yet the fans absolutely love him. 

If anything it proves my theory 

That was't meant to be a serious point, it was meant as a joke.

Many might not believe this, but Hutton isn't Brazilian  

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Hutton is an awful example. 

Hes been absolutely toilet for 90% of his time at Villa yet the fans absolutely love him. 

If anything it proves my theory

They love him for some things, but not others.....He's one of those enigma's.

like the curates egg, good in parts.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

That was't meant to be a serious point, it was meant as a joke.

Many might not believe this, but Hutton isn't Brazilian  

Due to his Paraguayan Mother and scottish Father.

Edited May 10, 2019 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

33 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

That’s not the same thing though. I’m not saying black players are never liked by the fans. Far from it. I’m saying black players are more easily labelled as lazy or other negative connotations. 

Kodjia, Adomah, Ayew, Benteke, Onomah. Just a few recent players who immediately spring to mind who were pretty regularly labelled as lazy by lots of people despite all performing admirably for us at various times. 

I’m struggling to think of a single white player who’s been labelled as lazy in that time. 

(And I don’t mean for single games. I mean lazy as a characteristic)

Ok let’s break this down. Onomah wasn’t our player, that’s why he got stick when poor. Ayew had an attitude problem, Adomah is just a very average player, Kodija doesn’t work hard enough and Benteke was worshiped!!

I think a better example would be Elmo, always been consistent for us yet got a ridiculous amount of stick at times. I remember some labelling him as the worst player we’ve ever had.

[TRO]

On 08/05/2019 at 19:31, Stevo985 said:

That sort of thing is rife. 

Words like “beast” are always applied to black players. Benteke is a beast. Drogba is a beast. Lukaku, what a beast. 

You rarely hear that word used for a big white player. 

I heard it used for Duncan Ferguson and Andy Carroll.....in their pomp.

my understanding is, its an endearing comment...relating to passion and power.

Edited May 10, 2019 by TRO

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

When in doubt, just add some "Race", "Sexuality" "Religion", or "Ethnicity" bias.

Absolute nonsense.

The average Football fan couldn't give a flying f*ck" about any of the above.

They just call their opinion as they see it. 

People will also have favourites/non favourites for a variety of reasons.

I hate when this weaponised nonsense permeates areas where it doesn't need to.

Surely if McGinn was black we would give him more stick?

Edited May 10, 2019 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

5 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

When in doubt, just add some "Race", "Sexuality" "Religion", or "Ethnicity" bias.

Absolute nonsense.

The average Football fan couldn't give a flying f*ck" about any of the above.

They just call their opinion as they see it. 

People will also have favourites/non favourites for a variety of reasons.

I hate when this weaponised nonsense permeates areas where it doesn't need to.

JV we can only speak for ourselves......but I would like to think you are right.

but just remember....if anothers opinion cannot be reconciled, the usual defaults listed, get rolled out as a way of trying to comprehend their stance.

Back to Hogan.....I don't think he is very good......but I accept that some fans do, for no other reason than, they think he is ok.

Edited May 10, 2019 by TRO

[Skruff]

People target players for various reasons. Some get a lot more slag then others. I don't think race is the first thing in people's minds when they slag someone off. But off course we give more leeway to someone whose more similar to ourself. That's our monkey brain at work. 

But if 3 players that's lazy, are being called lazy. But they also happen to have a lot of melanin in their skin. We're racist because they are black? I'm not sure who's the ones seeing colors then. You should be able to call someone lazy without the word racism being thrown around.