DelboyVilla Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 higher position and think more points than this time last year means foundation is steady more progress so far under Lambert than ever under Big Eck If position and points is the sign of improvement I think we should wait until the end on the season. higher position and think more points than this time last year means foundation is steady more progress so far under Lambert than ever under Big Eck If position and points is the sign of improvement I think we should wait until the end on the season. In terms of points, last season after 32 games we had 33 points, therefore this season and after a further £20m investment in the squad we are 1 point better off. Wow what great strides we are making. Funnily enough under Big Eck after 32 games we had 35 points 1 point more than this year. Therefore McLeish is better than Lambert if all the people that justify Lambert's reign are to be believed using their logic? Any Mcleish comparrison is moronic, It's as simple as that really. Different set of players, circumstances. No need for the abuse. Any McLeish reference was tongue in cheek because people had mentioned and compared Lambert reign to him. Didn't mean for there to be any, was generalising, wasn't aimed at you. OK then without wishing to fuel the fire why were the circumstances different under McLeish? We had the same idiots in charge and no money then either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted April 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's pretty obvious to me it's the finishing league position which matters rather than the total points gained. You don't hear teams who win the league say "yeah but it doesn't really count because we only accumulated x amount of points" If the conditions between one season to another were the exact same (ie, every team has the same players, no players have aged etc) then the points argument may hold some water. But it doesn't work that way, ultimately the league position you finish in defines how well/bad of a season you've had, not the points you've gained. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powell91 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's pretty obvious to me it's the finishing league position which matters rather than the total points gained. You don't hear teams who win the league say "yeah but it doesn't really count because we only accumulated x amount of points" If the conditions between one season to another were the exact same (ie, every team has the same players, no players have aged etc) then the points argument may hold some water. But it doesn't work that way, ultimately the league position you finish in defines how well/bad of a season you've had, not the points you've gained. you could arguably say that goal difference holds more power than points as its a better indicator to how your team have performed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't think the argument is people saying they would rather have more points than a higher position just whether the position can be used as an indicator of progression rather than points. As you were saying if a team won the league on say 70 points I'm sure they wouldn't care yet it would be hard to make an argument they had progressed from the season before if they finished on, say 90 points rather than the rest of the league regressing. This is my opinion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TezzRexx Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's going off topic but, regarding points, you have to look at the entire picutre when looking at points - finishing position. A lower point total but same finishing position, depending on the points gained by others could imply that the overall league has been more competitive. It could also mean that the teams higher up the league are causing a massive gulf in quality but you can't determine that until you look at all of the teams' point totals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 That league table position graph is misleading, go look at the points for a real sign. Each season is different. Points is by far the best indication of progress as it is easily measurable. League position depends on the standard of teams in the league that particular year. IMO there have been lots of poor teams with poor managers this year. QPR and Reading are probably poorer than any of teams in league this season. also this season a lot of top teams have lost or drawn at smaller teams. unlike a lot of other seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted April 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't think the argument is people saying they would rather have more points than a higher position just whether the position can be used as an indicator of progression rather than points. As you were saying if a team won the league on say 70 points I'm sure they wouldn't care yet it would be hard to make an argument they had progressed from the season before if they finished on, say 90 points rather than the rest of the league regressing. This is my opinion anyway. And that's entirely valid. The point is you cant really take either in isolation. Somebody mentioned for and against - that along with points scored and league position is a decent barometer of if we have progressed or not. But even that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. After all, we may have improved..... ... but our "direct opposition" may have improved more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't think the argument is people saying they would rather have more points than a higher position just whether the position can be used as an indicator of progression rather than points. As you were saying if a team won the league on say 70 points I'm sure they wouldn't care yet it would be hard to make an argument they had progressed from the season before if they finished on, say 90 points rather than the rest of the league regressing. This is my opinion anyway. I understand the way you are looking at it but do you really think fans would class their team as regressing if they managed to win the league by gaining less points than they had the season before? It still means they have beaten the points gained by their rival teams, which is the entire point of the game. Points totals are relevant to the season that they happen in. Of course I would much prefer us to end up on more points than last season, even if it is just one point better like we are now, and we've scored the same amount of goals as we had this time last time round but we've actually conceded far less. We'll be able to see things better when the season is over IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) For me this has been an completely wasted season and i can't wait for it to be over. I've seen little or no improvement in the way we play football, I don't think our squad is any stronger than last season or the seasons before that. I've seen no solid development in any of the players, just patches of good games followed by patches of utter tripe. Delph for example has been quite good from time to time, but no more so than at the end of last season, rather the opposite. Althou it's been much hailed by some the records seem to indicate we have NOT managed to lower our expenses, instead it's gone up. partly because we've not been able to remove some of the mismanaged "bomb squad". As for the manager he still continues with pretty much the same "tactic" every single game even thou it only seems to work against the teams that don't let us borrow the ball. I don't think he's building anything here, imo he's treading water keeping us just afloat I really hope he doesn't get another year at the club, but im sure he will as our benevolent leader Lerner is MIA. Edited April 10, 2014 by sne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points are. Edited April 10, 2014 by Big_John_10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 For me this has been an completely wasted season and i can't wait for it to be over. I've seen little or no improvement in the way we play football, I don't think our squad is any stronger than last season or the seasons before that. I've seen no solid development in any of the players, just patches of good games followed by patches of utter tripe. Delph for example has been quite good from time to time, but no more so than at the end of last season, rather the opposite. Althou it's been much hailed by some the records seem to indicate we have NOT managed to lower our expenses, instead it's gone up. partly because we've not been able to remove some of the mismanaged "bomb squad". As for the manager he still continues with pretty much the same "tactic" every single game even thou it only seems to work against the teams that don't let us borrow the ball. I don't think he's building anything here, imo he's treading water keeping us just afloat I really hope he doesn't get another year at the club, but im sure he will as our benevolent leader Lerner is MIA. Mismanaged bomb squad - massively gets on my tits that comment. Not one of them deserved to be treated in any other way. Doesn't it say it all when they've been told to do one and pretty much nobody of any note in the world wanted them? and none of them have gone one to do any better. Ireland scored a goal though! only because sparky tucks him in at night. Yes we didn't really push on at all this season, we didn't carry the back end of last season on. However, never have we had a consistent settled side this season. We've become tighter at the back (apart from the last 3 games) and this kind of stopped us having the free flowing stuff we had going. But still for the life of me can't quite see why people expected us to be comfotably top half in the SECOND season, baffling to be honest. Was always going to be bumpy. Season is almost over, it hasn't been a classic but it hasn't been edge of the seat thinking we're going down every week. Summer window, full squad back, we go again. How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points is. Have a day off John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points is. Surely it isn't that black and white. What about other teams with bigger budgets getting better from the previous season making it harder to gain points from them? Or the quality of Championship teams coming up being greater than the previous season? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points is. Surely it isn't that black and white. What about other teams with bigger budgets getting better from the previous season making it harder to gain points from them? Or the quality of Championship teams coming up being greater than the previous season? No two seasons are the same - surely that's obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points is. So if we got more points than last year but get relegated, then we'd have progressed? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How does more teams doing worse than previous years show Lambert's progressed. Points show how you've done over 38 games. If we end up with less then we've done worse over 38 games regardless of league position. League position is the important factor as everyone wants to finish as high in the league as possible but its not an accurate measure of progress from the previous year. Points are. And nearly everybody on here would've agreed a few weeks ago when this could be used to show the progress made this season from last. Now it doesn't, it has just been discarded and those who advocated it have airbrushed it from history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 This points/progress argument needs to be moved to the boring thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 The talk earlier in the season was of how well we were doing when comparing results against the same teams from last year. That line of defence reasoning seems to have died a death lately. The defence of Lambert gets more bizarre by the day. In two seasons he's now given us our heaviest ever defeat, and now our worst ever home record. It's not like he can even point to the quality of football as a defence, because that's dire too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 The talk earlier in the season was of how well we were doing when comparing results against the same teams from last year. That line of defence reasoning seems to have died a death lately. The defence of Lambert gets more bizarre by the day. In two seasons he's now given us our heaviest ever defeat, and now our worst ever home record. It's not like he can even point to the quality of football as a defence, because that's dire too. Well you're lumbered with him, so suck it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 This points/progress argument needs to be moved to the boring thread. It could be easily ended if those who advocated it throughout the season had the good grace to admit that the only reason they reject this method now is down to it not suiting their argument anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) For me this has been an completely wasted season and i can't wait for it to be over. I've seen little or no improvement in the way we play football, I don't think our squad is any stronger than last season or the seasons before that. I've seen no solid development in any of the players, just patches of good games followed by patches of utter tripe. Delph for example has been quite good from time to time, but no more so than at the end of last season, rather the opposite. Althou it's been much hailed by some the records seem to indicate we have NOT managed to lower our expenses, instead it's gone up. partly because we've not been able to remove some of the mismanaged "bomb squad". As for the manager he still continues with pretty much the same "tactic" every single game even thou it only seems to work against the teams that don't let us borrow the ball. I don't think he's building anything here, imo he's treading water keeping us just afloat I really hope he doesn't get another year at the club, but im sure he will as our benevolent leader Lerner is MIA. Mismanaged bomb squad - massively gets on my tits that comment. Not one of them deserved to be treated in any other way. Doesn't it say it all when they've been told to do one and pretty much nobody of any note in the world wanted them? and none of them have gone one to do any better. Ireland scored a goal though! only because sparky tucks him in at night. Yes we didn't really push on at all this season, we didn't carry the back end of last season on. However, never have we had a consistent settled side this season. We've become tighter at the back (apart from the last 3 games) and this kind of stopped us having the free flowing stuff we had going. But still for the life of me can't quite see why people expected us to be comfotably top half in the SECOND season, baffling to be honest. Was always going to be bumpy. Season is almost over, it hasn't been a classic but it hasn't been edge of the seat thinking we're going down every week. Summer window, full squad back, we go again. Agree about the bold part, never got what people saw to make them think that. To add another point that dissapointed me this season is that none of our youngsters (17-21) has gotten a sniff at PL football. Fair enough Lambert sees them day in and day out (i don't) and doesn't feel they are good enough, I just feel it's a shame that we can't get our young players into the first team when almost every other team in the league seems able to. Whatever is wrong with our academy must be looked at because the goal must be to produce PL players for the club so that we don't have to sign squad players like Bennet, Luna, Holt, Sylla, Bowery... Althou winning the Next Gen was a fun bonus Edited April 10, 2014 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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