General officiating/rules

[tom_avfc]

26 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

You know this is objectively wrong right? He’s like a foot off Wesley was a cm off based on very zoomed in lines. 
 

zaha was clearly off, it’s not controversial in the slightest. 

The wide view of it I’ve seen has a line drawn from his shoulder down. Not sure how they can be massively accurate with where the line is drawn (ignoring whether I think a player leaning forwards should be offside anyway). If that line is marginally inaccurate then the decision is potentially wrong.

The ball also appears to be already in motion from the player passing the ball. At the speed the players are moving if the frame is marginally out then that offside call is completely different.

Basically, I have no trust in pausing a camera and drawing a few lines on it to get a decision right, particularly given those involved in the process. The semi-automated decisions seen in European competitions sit much better with me.

Everyone was in position for kick off as well so I’m assuming the linesman wouldn’t have given it. If he’s a foot offside I’m not sure it takes the time it took for VAR to overturn the goal either.

[mikeyp102]

5 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

Offside is one of few factual decisions they can make (theoretically, down to technical limitations), so I've no problem with them taking a little time to get it right (and automation will further help this). Zaha was offside and the decision was correct. It also sounds like the linesman gave it too afterwards so it's actually one that pre-VAR would've been ruled out and everyone would've moved on (rightly so in this case).

The linesman did not flag at all

[fightoffyour]

9 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

The linesman did not flag at all

Sorry, got the impression from here (sorry to drag you here too OBE) that he did.

On 04/03/2023 at 20:45, OutByEaster? said:

I thought the linesman was excellent, better than me at least, I thought Zaha was onside for the goal and then again a few minutes later - but VAR confirmed his eye was better than mine.

 

[MrBlack]

The issue with the freeze frame, as alluded to already, is that you rock the picture between the frame before the ball is moving and the frame after its moving. The VAR official can then pick either of these frames (I've seen examples of both) to base the decision on.

Ball not moving:

Ball moving:

The contact happens at some point between those two moments and if the player is in an onside position in the first frame but an offside one in the second, then you can't know if he was onside or not. Those situations should go with the onfield decision, but VAR doesn't work that way at the moment. They think 50fps is enough to get the exact point of contact.

In the Zaha scenario we got the moving ball version of the decision, and if he's onside in the previous frame of the video, then we potentially got lucky. 

The rule needs to be updated as they can't freeze frame the exact moment the ball is played.

Alternatively, automate it like they did at the world cup and at least its consistent, with no room for bias based on club, game context, scoeline, outcome relevance, etc.

[fightoffyour]

1 hour ago, MrBlack said:

The issue with the freeze frame, as alluded to already, is that you rock the picture between the frame before the ball is moving and the frame after its moving. The VAR official can then pick either of these frames (I've seen examples of both) to base the decision on.

Ball not moving:

Ball moving:

The contact happens at some point between those two moments and if the player is in an onside position in the first frame but an offside one in the second, then you can't know if he was onside or not. Those situations should go with the onfield decision, but VAR doesn't work that way at the moment. They think 50fps is enough to get the exact point of contact.

In the Zaha scenario we got the moving ball version of the decision, and if he's onside in the previous frame of the video, then we potentially got lucky. 

The rule needs to be updated as they can't freeze frame the exact moment the ball is played.

Alternatively, automate it like they did at the world cup and at least its consistent, with no room for bias based on club, game context, scoeline, outcome relevance, etc.

Agree with your point about the frame speed which is why I said offside is a factual decision down to technical limitations (fps) and also argued for automatiion.

These aren't great examples though; the first one would've been farther offside if the ball was moving while the second one would've been farther onside if the ball was not moving.

[MrBlack]

38 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

Agree with your point about the frame speed which is why I said offside is a factual decision down to technical limitations (fps) and also argued for automatiion.

These aren't great examples though; the first one would've been farther offside if the ball was moving while the second one would've been farther onside if the ball was not moving.

Yeah,  I know the examples given would just make the decision more obviously right if the other way round, but just pointing out the inconsistency.

The logic behind this inconsistency doesn't always stack up as the example I recall (but can't remember specifically enough to get a copy of) was when we had a goal disallowed due to the frame being taken when the ball was moving and had it been taken the frame before I think we'd have been given onside and got a goal. It definitely allows wiggle room for an official's bias to come in. And arguably more so than just in the heat of a game when the lino has a split second call to make and eyes watching him at the time

Edited March 6, 2023 by MrBlack

[rodders0223]

Fernandes escapes action then.

You can dive. You can put your hands on an official. You can scream in their faces in 1s and 2s and 3s, you can kick people to buggery from the first whistle but every once in a while they'll send someone off from Wolves or whatever for back chat so it's okay.

 

They're actually not fit for purpose.

[StefanAVFC]

Everything outside of the area gets let go, they want the game to flow; any minimal contact in the area with an attacker flinging themselves to the ground is an auto pen

so that’s handball, offside and penalties they’ve **** 

[Zatman]

Not sure how Rice taking out Buendia is not a penalty but Bailey touching Paqueta shoulders equals a loss of his legs and a penalty

[villa4europe]

They don't know what they're watching, the fall was completely unnatural, the contact didn't correlate with the fall 

But contact and falling over in the box must mean a foul

It's like they've been shipped in from another sport, whoever thinks that's a foul has never played Sunday league in their life, you'd be embarrassed to do that down the park yet these refs are giving it

[The_Steve]

 Pope's foul

 

[May-Z]

Redknapp matches my opinion. 

VAR shouldn't be making any decisions. 

The ref should go over to the monitor and make it for himself, every time. 

There shouldn't even be a chance for someone else to have to see if there is 'enough' to overturn...just let the ref review his original decision!

[KAZZAM]

I honestly don't think the Pope foul was a foul tbh. Jimenz clearly plays for it throws himself into Pope. 

But but but ofc same scenario vs Villa, Paqueta throws himself to the floor pretends there's a leg tangle and when clearly there was nothing but its a pen and we get punished. 

 

 

 

[Starscrem_Prime]

Put a mic on these people so we can at least try to understand how they come to some conclusions. 

The inconsistencies from one game to another are staggering.

[villa4europe]

9 hours ago, May-Z said:

Redknapp matches my opinion. 

VAR shouldn't be making any decisions. 

The ref should go over to the monitor and make it for himself, every time. 

There shouldn't even be a chance for someone else to have to see if there is 'enough' to overturn...just let the ref review his original decision!

Like how FIFA use it in the world Cup....

2 tournaments now FIFA and their ref teams from footballing powerhouses such as Paraguay and Honduras have shown exactly how VAR could and should work

The PL and PGMOL aren't interested 

[Mr_Dogg]

9 hours ago, Starscrem_Prime said:

Put a mic on these people so we can at least try to understand how they come to some conclusions. 

The inconsistencies from one game to another are staggering.

The clear and concise reasoning of the miced up officials in rugby is such a contrast to the mysterious decisions made by VAR.

[Starscrem_Prime]

1 minute ago, Mr_Dogg said:

The clear and concise reasoning of the miced up officials in rugby is such a contrast to the mysterious decisions made by VAR.

Exactly, I can watch the rugby and disagree with a decision, but hearing the conversation I can at least understand their interpretation of events, and the implementation of rules to offences is way more consistent.

[Davkaus]

12 hours ago, KAZZAM said:

I honestly don't think the Pope foul was a foul tbh. Jimenz clearly plays for it throws himself into Pope. 

But but but ofc same scenario vs Villa, Paqueta throws himself to the floor pretends there's a leg tangle and when clearly there was nothing but its a pen and we get punished. 

 

 

 

I don't see it like this, but there's enough in it to argue the point

This is the best video I can find (can't embed, soz) https://dubz.co/video/209ba2

I think the best angle of it is from behind the goal (from about 24 seconds in). Jiminez cleanly takes ball and has to turn towards goal. He's there a mile before Pope.  You're right that Jiminez does move towards him after he gets the ball

There's 3 interpretations there, IMO

1. Jiminez is buying the penalty

2. He's just trying to get the other side of the ball to get a better shot off

3. He's starting to brace himself for the clattering he's about to get.

It's 3 and a penalty for my money (though not a red).

Behold my very professional frame by frame

 

 

[bobzy]

Points 1 and 3 on the above post for me.  I think Jimenez is making sure there's contact... but there's also no way that there's no going to be contact.  He's playing for the penalty (we hate that, right guys?  Right?  What about Grealish?  No?) so I think a red card would be harsh, but should've been given as a penalty as it's still a foul.

[sharkyvilla]

Surely he wouldn't dive in that situation considering all he had to do was get the ball and roll it in an empty net?