jackbauer24 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 29 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said: I see a lot of potential in Maupay, it’s only his first season in The Prem, 6 Premier League goals already Hourihane has played 775minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 3 goals and has two assists from midfield. Maupay has played 1541minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 7 goals and has one assist as a striker. You state Hourihane isn't Premier League quality but Maupay is? I don't get that... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Yacouba Sylla's brother is what we need, out of contract in the summer too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 8 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Well he's not. He has pretty 'average' pace and so my point is that if you have Giroud (slow), Murray (slow) and Davis (average pace) then that's overall a slow selection of forwards, none of them have genuine pace. Nah to be fair there was a game he came on in before his injury and he made a bursting run down the left flank. At the time I even commented not realising he was that quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tomaszk Posted January 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said: Hourihane has played 775minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 3 goals and has two assists from midfield. Maupay has played 1541minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 7 goals and has one assist as a striker. You state Hourihane isn't Premier League quality but Maupay is? I don't get that... Please refer to performances. Stop just reading numbers. This isn't baseball. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, tezzaleed said: so we might have a chance of getting him. make him target no.1 I say. Sod stats, sod how he's done at any other club, sod form. We all saw what he did last time. he hasn't had any serious injuries he has it in his locker. With the unconditional love he'd get from the villa crowd his confidence would sore and he'd be twice the player he is at Palace. He has done his knees in missing 133 days last season. On top of that he has consistently missed time since his 2nd season at villa and he hasn't been relied upon as a number one option since his 3rd season with us. Since the start of the 13/14 season he has missed 59 games through injury. During that time he has aged 7 years has ruptured 2 ligaments and his achilles tendon. He lost his pace which was what made him so dominant. No defender could handle his pace if they could handle his strength and vice versa. He could bully anyone he wanted. Now that those days are over he hasn't successfully compensated for his lost pace and is struggling to make an impact for Crystal Palace. Whilst he is Probably a better option than Glenn Murray he should not be in our top 5 choices if we have money available to us. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said: Hourihane has played 775minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 3 goals and has two assists from midfield. Maupay has played 1541minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 7 goals and has one assist as a striker. You state Hourihane isn't Premier League quality but Maupay is? I don't get that... Your mistake was comparing a striker with a midfielder. Hourihane is a midfielder and has obligations in the midfield, obligations he is very bad at fulfilling which as a result causes the entire team to suffer. Maupay, doesn't have those same obligations as his main responsibility is to score goals 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: Please refer to performances. Stop just reading numbers. This isn't baseball. Yes and no. Numbers are not the be all and end all (well other than the results!) but they must be considered when talking about a players performance. Just because a statistic doesn't fit your view on a player doesn't mean it can be disregarded UNLESS you put an argument forward that counters the data. I can have a player I like as a striker but however hard he works or great he looks on the ball then unless he scores goals he will be judged on numbers. End product is relevant. It is a factor. In this case the data suggests a midfielder is outperforming a striker. So where is the counter argument? That is my point. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Your mistake was comparing a striker with a midfielder. Hourihane is a midfielder and has obligations in the midfield, obligations he is very bad at fulfilling which as a result causes the entire team to suffer. Maupay, doesn't have those same obligations as his main responsibility is to score goals I am not comparing like with like. I am suggesting that when a midfielder is outperforming a striker in an attacking sense then to suggest it is the underperforming player that is better needs further explanation. Furthermore, Maupay does have a responsibility to score and can let down that obligation/ his team equally. I don't believe any position is not part of the TEAM. If a player such as Hourihane is out performing as an attacker and underperforming as a defender then the real analysis is that he is playing in the wrong position and/or be utilised incorrectly. But that's not the point of this debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: Please refer to performances. Stop just reading numbers. This isn't baseball. And the fact is that when I have watched maupay play it honestly looks like he takes a large number of ill advised shots ranking 7th in the league in shots despite Brighton as a whole being 9th in the league incidentally 1 shot behind us. All the players who have taken the same number of shots or more come from teams higher ranking than Brighton and they have all scored more goals. So how about you stop trying to suck a Brighton player off and show a bit of faith in our management because whilst you may not think the team is good enough all of the players we have signed look to me like prem quality. Like you and a few others complain trez looks crap in every game despite that he has scored 3 has and started off both the moves we scored from with excellent pressing against Burnley. We have money to spend and we will spend it but maupay was not right for us because Brentford refused to sell to us for what was a reasonable price. They used us and Brighton as leverage so when we left the talks they dropped the price to something that would have been fair. But maupay is a short player without a huge amount of pace and a bit of a bad attitude getting unnecessary cards last season and Smith wod have known all about it. If he was worth the price we would have bought him. I don't see maupay getting much better he has good control and alright finishing but where can his game improve? Wesley has 5 goals and in the games we have won he has been one of our top performers. Yet everyone and their mother can point to areas of improvement. Potentials often about being successful whilst still having clear areas to improve and Wesley has plenty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 minute ago, jackbauer24 said: Yes and no. Numbers are not the be all and end all (well other than the results!) but they must be considered when talking about a players performance. Just because a statistic doesn't fit your view on a player doesn't mean it can be disregarded UNLESS you put an argument forward that counters the data. I can have a player I like as a striker but however hard he works or great he looks on the ball then unless he scores goals he will be judged on numbers. End product is relevant. It is a factor. In this case the data suggests a midfielder is outperforming a striker. So where is the counter argument? That is my point. You can absolutely hold whatever position you like I agree sir. My counter argument is watch the games. Watch overall contribution. There's probably loads of data to backup the opposite to your scenario but balls am I going looking for it. You've picked minutes and goals. I can't be arsed to find ball retention, progressive passes into the final third, xG figures for players who are very clearly not good enough. It'd be a waste of time. I prefer making outlandish statements as loudly as I can. If Hourihane had 10 goals I'd still be saying he doesn't do enough in general play and needs to quicken up in possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Just now, Tomaszk said: You can absolutely hold whatever position you like I agree sir. My counter argument is watch the games. Watch overall contribution. There's probably loads of data to backup the opposite to your scenario but balls am I going looking for it. You've picked minutes and goals. I can't be arsed to find ball retention, progressive passes into the final third, xG figures for players who are very clearly not good enough. It'd be a waste of time. I prefer making outlandish statements as loudly as I can. If Hourihane had 10 goals I'd still be saying he doesn't do enough in general play and needs to quicken up in possession. I'm not debating Hourihane as a midfielder... You're missing the point. I'm suggesting I don't see how someone can suggest Maupay as a Striker is Prem quality and Hourihane as a midfielder isn't based on those statistics. I'm asking for reasoning, not even suggesting they are wrong but I just want to know how they came up with that belief. But, for the record, I am a STH and it is weird how polar opposite views on Hourihane are on these boards compared to vast majority of the crowd, especially those I sit round! But, like I say, that isn't the point of my query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 minute ago, jackbauer24 said: I'm not debating Hourihane as a midfielder... You're missing the point. I'm suggesting I don't see how someone can suggest Maupay as a Striker is Prem quality and Hourihane as a midfielder isn't based on those statistics. I'm asking for reasoning, not even suggesting they are wrong but I just want to know how they came up with that belief. But, for the record, I am a STH and it is weird how polar opposite views on Hourihane are on these boards compared to vast majority of the crowd, especially those I sit round! But, like I say, that isn't the point of my query. Maybe I am missing the point because I can't figure out what you're asking. I dipped in halfway on the Maupay/Hourihane thing...oh no, you were discussing with sir_gary.... I rate Maupay. He's dangerous. When I watch him, he looks a pain in the arse to mark. Players will come off knowing they've been in a game even if they've got themselves a clean sheet. If things don't go his way he's a ratty little arsehole who will start trying other means to get the better of players. Hourihane is slow, weak and a coward who shirks every bit of responsibility he can in open play. He's got a great knack for scoring goals and if we're all over the opposition he's probably our biggest goal threat. I want him on the pitch in that situation, he's a useful player for us. Maupay is definitely a PL player. Hourihane is touch and go, but can certainly find a place in a PL squad if used correctly. We've not been too far off using him very well, just the odd smelly performance he's started in usually following a goal. He can only play in games where we're going to have 55+% possession. So to reiterate, Maupay definitely a PL player IMO, Hourihane has question marks. Generally with stats, I would say if I've watched players a lot, I don't care about digging into numbers to see if they pass a threshold or something. I'll have a look if I'm interested in something in particular but my eyes tell me enough to trump figures and hold the opinion I do. The swing in black and white figures would have to be very big for me to go flip and say well he looked good to me but he's obviously not a good player because of X, Y, Z. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: Hourihane is slow, weak and a coward who shirks every bit of responsibility he can in open play. He's got a great knack for scoring goals and if we're all over the opposition he's probably our biggest goal threat. I want him on the pitch in that situation, he's a useful player for us. Generally with stats, I would say if I've watched players a lot, I don't care about digging into numbers to see if they pass a threshold or something. I'll have a look if I'm interested in something in particular but my eyes tell me enough to trump figures and hold the opinion I do. The swing in black and white figures would have to be very big for me to go flip and say well he looked good to me but he's obviously not a good player because of X, Y, Z. Going wildly off topic now but to conclude (and carry on in Hourihane thread if necessary!) you have done exactly what I requested (of another user!) and explained the apparent contradiction of rating Maupay and not Hourihane. That's not to say I agree but...! Interestingly, I actually find it more common that spectators have a negative opinion that can't be swayed than a positive one. Players fall off pedestals with relative ease (especially at this club!) but I see little of people reviewing their dislike of players. So rather than saying Maupay isn't good enough because of X, Y and Z it's more interesting as to how your (or any fans) view of Houihane is so negatively fixed. In my opinion, it's due to either a misunderstanding of his role, a lack of appreciation of that role or that he's not utilised properly by the management. Actually it's probably elements of all three. Conor isn't a dribbling midfielder and he isn't an enforcer. He's that always under recognised 'cog'. Stats back up his passing success is higher than anyones at Villa, his ball retention beats all our midfielders, his bad touches per match is lower than all our midfielders, his key passes is behind just the wonder pairing of Jack and John. I could go on... But, like you rightly point out, stats aren't everything and he loses ball less because he doesn't dribble for example. So really it comes down to whether you respect the role rather than the player. Or perhaps whether you think we need that role at all. Personally I do. I want a player who does the boring stuff, quietly and efficiently. Ticks over the midfield. But then look at his free kicks, look closely at the goal against Burnley (not the goal, the clever but ever so simple touch back to Grealish with the outside of his foot to then make space) look at the first time ball in the lead up to our first goal in the Playoffs. Look at the goal against Blues or the crucial goal against WBA in the Semis. This whole 'goes missing' thing is a bit of a red herring thing really. He's not as involved when we're up against it because of his role. In the same way Wesley won't get as many touches and Grealish won't go on as many runs. So he doesn't 'go missing' or be a coward, but shouldn't play in those games because we need a different tactical set up - we need an extra enforcer type. When we're on top of teams we don't have a go at the goalkeeper because he did nothing! It is the role. But really...way off topic, it's late and I've got work in morning and I'm rambling 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said: Conor isn't a dribbling midfielder and he isn't an enforcer. He's that always under recognised 'cog'. Stats back up his passing success is higher than anyones at Villa, his ball retention beats all our midfielders, his bad touches per match is lower than all our midfielders, his key passes is behind just the wonder pairing of Jack and John. Most of that is true and I agree with. He is the most accurate passer but makes the 14th least passes per game 24 avg. He's 6th for key passes behind Grealish McGinn Elmo Targett AEG I've recently posted he's horrible in front of defence in Leicester thread so had a look at key midfield defensive stats. Horrific. Worse than I thought. 16th for tackles with 0.5 per game (Heaton is not far behind on 0.2). Nakamba and McGinn 2nd and 3rd with 2.9 and 2.5 respectively. El Ghazi is 0.8 and Trez 1.3 and Conor should be easily beating them. Interceptions 15th 0.3 per game. Nakamba and McGinn the top 2 mids as expected but not overall with 1.9 and 0.9 and they often deployed in mid 3 of 433 where Conor also plays I'm actually shocked but it sure explains away some performances where he seems to run around not actually doing much Edited January 7, 2020 by Kiwivillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir_gary_cahill Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, jackbauer24 said: Hourihane has played 775minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 3 goals and has two assists from midfield. Maupay has played 1541minutes in his first season in the Premier League and scored 7 goals and has one assist as a striker. You state Hourihane isn't Premier League quality but Maupay is? I don't get that... In my opinion, Hourihane isn’t Premier League quality, his set pieces are his saving grace. His general play is quite poor I think, 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, jackbauer24 said: I am not comparing like with like. I am suggesting that when a midfielder is outperforming a striker in an attacking sense then to suggest it is the underperforming player that is better needs further explanation. Furthermore, Maupay does have a responsibility to score and can let down that obligation/ his team equally. I don't believe any position is not part of the TEAM. If a player such as Hourihane is out performing as an attacker and underperforming as a defender then the real analysis is that he is playing in the wrong position and/or be utilised incorrectly. But that's not the point of this debate... Well, I don't really disagree with any of this, especially since I've already provided the explanation for why Conor is considered the underperformer despite having a similar goal per minutes talley to Maupay. And yes to your second paragraph too, and I have suggested several times putting Conor up top because of his attacking stats although most people here seem to be very hesitant to the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottaloo Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Back on topic, please gents....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaHatesMe Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Gentlemen, your arguing has solved all our problems. Clearly since we can't have Maupay, we just need to move Hourihane to striker and find a new midfielder instead. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkLillis Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Whilst not a world beater Hourihane is a good player. I suspect he would be being lauded by a lot of Villa fans had we have managed to turn a couple of extra points this season. Small margins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Very excited by this potential new January transfer of ours, Hoorihan, where does he play? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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