Douglas Luiz

[ejvilla]

Luiz is one of those players who will leave us and go onto be a CL regular for a Spanish / Italian side before returning to a top 4 prem club for £65M when he turns 27.

Problem is he joined us too young. We need the player he will be in 3 years, but that guy wouldn't join a mid-table side.

Hope I'm wrong and he's consistently good enough this year to command a 1st team spot.

[Rightdm00]

5 hours ago, ejvilla said:

Luiz is one of those players who will leave us and go onto be a CL regular for a Spanish / Italian side before returning to a top 4 prem club for £65M when he turns 27.

Problem is he joined us too young. We need the player he will be in 3 years, but that guy wouldn't join a mid-table side.

Hope I'm wrong and he's consistently good enough this year to command a 1st team spot.

If Douglas is 4 years away from being a £60 million midfielder then he joined us at the exact right time.  I think some fans still haven't adjusted to how much of an advantage the top 6 have over us. 

For example, the team who finished 4th and a mere 12 ponts ahead of us is about to spend £100 million on a striker. That's after spending £50 million on a striker just the season before. These are silly numbers, absurd really.  We just aren't ready to compete at that level.  Harsh truth but that is why Jack chose to leave.  The only way we have any hope is that we give our young players like Douglas a chance to become that world class midfielder.  

[Dave-R]

Luiz will develop fantastically down the line, I don't think he be going anywhere for a while. He did ace last season but was one who fell off abit after Covid scare. Did come back before season end with some nice performances.

The way we have to look at it is that scare affected us so we can't be putting to much pain on our players, have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think he will be ace this season.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Dave-R

[sparrow1988]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

At the outset, the motive behind this debate, was how do we stop opposing teams

raiding us throught the middle and control that midfield to avoid it.

If we have an ambition to achieve European football, we have to find c12 points on top of our 55 last season.....The front looks feasible with the huge investment and the defence showed significant improvement last season.

So, do you think the midfield is capable of punching its weight with our front and back dept's...and driving us on to the target of top 6?

If the debate is how do we stop opposing teams, then, in my opinion, the debate should be in a different thread. It belongs in the team shape or tactics threads, not a thread related to a single player. Look at Kante (I think that we can agree that he is one of, if not, the best DM in the world) for example. He looked absolutely lost in Lampard's Chelsea team because the system was a shambles and was in no way set up to deal with counter attacks. Tuchel comes in, employs a different system, or even just a system, and all of a sudden there was talk of Kante winning the Ballon D'Or. Without an organised targeted team effort where everybody is clear of their role within that system and most importantly carries out their role, we will not stop the opposition.

I have outlined why I think teams just ran through, well, down the wings of us in the second half of the season in my post - we conceded that space in order to form a block in front of goal, defend the ball into the box and then break from there. In the first half of the season they weren't running through us, we were actually winning a lot of ball in midfield. Of course there were exceptions like Leeds at home (a game that we actually could have won), but you're not going to get it perfectly right every game - even City lost to flipping Wigan Athletic in 2018.

To answer your question regarding the top 6, we will be there or thereabouts if the team (including the midfield) performs close to its ability. However, the first 5 places are sown up in my opinion. After that between 6th and 11th or 12th, it's a toss up between Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Leeds, West Ham, us, and probably a surprise pacakge like we were last year at the moment.

[CVByrne]

The issues is balance in midfield. Last season a 4 2 3 1 was the plan but Barkley lost all form and then we had to move Jack there which meant required 2 sitting midfielders, the balance of McGinn and Luiz didn't work too well after turn of the year.

I think we need a 1 2 and a 2 1 midfield set up. A 1 2 set up needs a Nakamba + player, one who has better passing than he has. Then we have Luiz, McGinn Sanson, Carney, JJ as options in the 1 2 system. With a 2 1 we can have a Buendia, Sanson etc.. ahead of the 2 sitting midfielders. 

We need a mix of midfield options and with the hope of European football for next season we'll need the numbers there. Competition for places, chances to rest players etc..

[TRO]

2 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

If the debate is how do we stop opposing teams, then, in my opinion, the debate should be in a different thread. It belongs in the team shape or tactics threads, not a thread related to a single player. Look at Kante (I think that we can agree that he is one of, if not, the best DM in the world) for example. He looked absolutely lost in Lampard's Chelsea team because the system was a shambles and was in no way set up to deal with counter attacks. Tuchel comes in, employs a different system, or even just a system, and all of a sudden there was talk of Kante winning the Ballon D'Or. Without an organised targeted team effort where everybody is clear of their role within that system and most importantly carries out their role, we will not stop the opposition.

I have outlined why I think teams just ran through, well, down the wings of us in the second half of the season in my post - we conceded that space in order to form a block in front of goal, defend the ball into the box and then break from there. In the first half of the season they weren't running through us, we were actually winning a lot of ball in midfield. Of course there were exceptions like Leeds at home (a game that we actually could have won), but you're not going to get it perfectly right every game - even City lost to flipping Wigan Athletic in 2018.

To answer your question regarding the top 6, we will be there or thereabouts if the team (including the midfield) performs close to its ability. However, the first 5 places are sown up in my opinion. After that between 6th and 11th or 12th, it's a toss up between Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Leeds, West Ham, us, and probably a surprise pacakge like we were last year at the moment.

All makes sense.... not sure I have as much faith in systems as I do in players playing well...I guess its a bit of both......If a player is playing below par in a changed system, the system won't save him.

Where my concern remains is, if you are saying we concede the midfield to form a block out of design, it still concerns me. conceding territory is not my idea of thoughtful play, It is still open to  ricochets and overloads and chaos like Burnley apply,or the italians in Euro final, if that much ground is conceded... sure we can't get it right every time, no one can, but the trick is, is to make it harder for the opposition to get access to our defence.....when they are in the face of defenders, mistakes happen, the danger should be sniffed out higher up the pitch.

We had another example on Sunday where a back post ball was failed to be cut out and the opposition header, found a central man between our centre backs, that happened a number of times last season.

Its in this thread because, Dougie has a huge part to play along with McGinn, in the issue, but if it should go somewhere else, I will stand corrected.

 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

The issues is balance in midfield. Last season a 4 2 3 1 was the plan but Barkley lost all form and then we had to move Jack there which meant required 2 sitting midfielders, the balance of McGinn and Luiz didn't work too well after turn of the year.

I think we need a 1 2 and a 2 1 midfield set up. A 1 2 set up needs a Nakamba + player, one who has better passing than he has. Then we have Luiz, McGinn Sanson, Carney, JJ as options in the 1 2 system. With a 2 1 we can have a Buendia, Sanson etc.. ahead of the 2 sitting midfielders. 

We need a mix of midfield options and with the hope of European football for next season we'll need the numbers there. Competition for places, chances to rest players etc..

I agree. it is balance, hence my reasoning to see a better version of Nakamba come in a some stage to enhance that role.

Marv might be ok, as he looks like he has improved at the back end of last year.....but to have only one dedicated no6 in a squad looks a bit thin to me.

The kid from the Albion Tim Iroegbunam might be the long term fix as he seems to have the credentials, should he blossom.

Edited August 9, 2021 by TRO

[sparrow1988]

55 minutes ago, TRO said:

All makes sense.... not sure I have as much faith in systems as I do in players playing well...I guess its a bit of both......If a player is playing below par in a changed system, the system won't save him.

Where my concern remains is, if you are saying we concede the midfield to form a block out of design, it still concerns me. conceding territory is not my idea of thoughtful play, It is still open to  ricochets and overloads and chaos like Burnley apply,or the italians in Euro final, if that much ground is conceded... sure we can't get it right every time, no one can, but the trick is, is to make it harder for the opposition to get access to our defence.....when they are in the face of defenders, mistakes happen, the danger should be sniffed out higher up the pitch.

We had another example on Sunday where a back post ball was failed to be cut out and the opposition header, found a central man between our centre backs, that happened a number of times last season.

Its in this thread because, Dougie has a huge part to play along with McGinn, in the issue, but if it should go somewhere else, I will stand corrected.

 

For sure it is both, the players need to play well within the system. The system and the player are dependent on one another though and it really shows when one player doesn't do their job. The system breaks down and other players look bad as a result. The affected player does need to try and adapt to this but like I mentioned with Kante, they can only do so much when the system isn't working.

I don't think that the receding into a block was the main plan for last season. We saw a completely different style at the beginning of the season compared to the second half. I think it was an adaptation to deal with the effects of the covid outbreak on the squad. To play that pressing game where you win the ball back high up the pitch requires phenomenal levels of fitness, and even if none of them contracted the virus and the potential effects that can have on fitness, they still had to train in their back gardens for two weeks. Now you can look after yourself for these two weeks as well as possible but you're going to lose conditioning compared to when you're training at Bodymoor with all the facilities and monitoring that are available there.

Following on from that we were just sent in to a period of game, recovery, game where again I don't think that there was much chance of recovering that lost conditioning from the enforced break. In order to conserve energy levels for this period, the system of retreating into a block and playing on the counter was employed and the pressing from the first half of the season abandoned. We emerged from that period with the season essentially over. A very outside chance of Europe and well clear of relegation, which I also think affected the players mentally.

I expect to see a reversion to the style of the first half of last season as I believe it is how Dean really wants to play and conceding pitch position is not the plan going forward. It'll be interesting to see the difference with a, what I anticipate to be, harder working forward line and a bee-like worker in Buendia in Barkley's place. If the midfield is still not performing then come the January window I expect changes to be made in personnel.

Edited August 9, 2021 by sparrow1988

[burchy]

I’d be inclined to give Dougie a new contract, you don’t get into the Brazil squad if you’re crap. He could really come into his prime over the course of his next contract and although I said I’d listen to offers in another post about him I think he deserves some time. 

I think he’s a bit of a scapegoat to how we played last year, McGinn also. Luiz is not a No6, or at least I’d don’t think he is. Nakamba is the DM in the squad but his limited passing range meant Smith went with Luiz most of the time. I think if we had a better version of Nakamba Luiz could work well further forward alongside McGinn/Sanson/Ramsay (although I’d like him to go on loan)/Chuk, in a more defensive minded midfield three. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

How is Martnelli playing today but Luiz isn’t even back?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[sne]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

How is Martinez playing today and Luiz isn’t even back?

Martinez didn't play at the Olympics.

Edit. ah gotcha Martinelli.

Edited August 13, 2021 by sne

[KAZZAM]

Brum mail says Douglas back on Monday. 

[CVByrne]

So he only had 1 week off, if that even. That's crazy

[Vive_La_Villa]

15 minutes ago, sne said:

Martinez didn't play at the Olympics.

Edit. ah gotcha Martinelli.

Yeh had to edit it. Not sure how much he played.

[Sulberto21]

Douglas was brilliant from Project restart up until January 2021 after our covid outbreak at the club. 

[sne]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Yeh had to edit it. Not sure how much he played.

75 minutes over 3 games according to Transfermarkt so might be why. Still not a lot of rest but maybe the sudden withdrawal of Lacazette and Auba tonight is why he's playing?

[sharkyvilla]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Yeh had to edit it. Not sure how much he played.

Martinelli only played 75 minutes in the Olympics, pretty sure Doug played almost every minute he was available for.

[Enda]

I think he’s crucial to us this year. The talk this window has been about the weakness in midfield. I’m not sure we are potentially weak there. Three years younger than Targett, if Doug makes a step up in performance (like Targett and Konsa did, for example) then we are flying in all parts of the pitch.

[Vive_La_Villa]

16 minutes ago, sne said:

75 minutes over 3 games according to Transfermarkt so might be why. Still not a lot of rest but maybe the sudden withdrawal of Lacazette and Auba tonight is why he's playing?

 Yeh makes sense. Glad we’re in a position to let him recover. It’s crazy a club like Arsenal needed to start him. We should be finishing above them this season. 

[Phil Silvers]

41 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

Douglas was brilliant from Project restart up until January 2021 after our covid outbreak at the club. 

Bang on, it's hard to know how we deal with him. The player is in there but the consistency is an issue. He's young so you'd think we can get him there but how long will it take is the question. We have to keep him in my opinion unless a stupid money offer comes in.