Douglas Luiz

[Laughable Chimp]

7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Yep, we had one of the better defences in the league.

Dougie’s critics won’t give him any credit for that, but clearly he must have been involved. It wasn’t all down to Martinez (no keeper is good enough to singlehandedly get those figures without support from the players in front of them).

There’s a lot of obvious hyperbole and attention seeking in these threads - avatar with a cross through an ex player’s head is a giveaway that someone enjoys being controversial.

The team was worse with him defensively than without him. We conceded 1.33 goals per 90 with him in the team(12th best defence if extended to 38 games) compared to 0.70 goals without him. The sample size of the amount of minutes played without him may be small but I think that difference is too big to just swipe under the rug.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[Kiwivillan]

1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

The team was worse with him defensively than without him. We conceded 1.33 goals per 90 with him in the team(12th best defence if extended to 38 games) compared to 0.70 goals without him. The sample size of the amount of minutes played without him may be small but I think that difference is too big to just swipe under the rug.

 

 

0.44 goals conceded in 9 games he played with no Barkley. 

[Laughable Chimp]

50 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

0.44 goals conceded in 9 games he played with no Barkley. 

Its a lot more than just 9 games if you consider the games where Barkley was only on as a sub or was subbed off early(Brighton game due to injury). The following is the list of games I've checked which meet that criteria. I'm also ignoring games where Luiz didn't start obviously. If there's mistakes in my information below point them out please because to get this information its a bit tedious and therefore prone to  error.

v Sheffield(H)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Fulham(A)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Brighton(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v West Ham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v Wolves(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v West Brom(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v Palace(H)-Conceded 0 goals

v Chelsea(A)-Conceded 1 goal

V United(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Wolves(H)-Conceded 0 goals

V Newcastle(A)-Conceded 1 goals

V Tottenham(H)-Conceded 2 goals

V Liverpool(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Man City(H)-Conceded 2 goals

V Palace(A)-Conceded 3 goals

 

That still comes out to about 1.13 goals conceded per game.

 

If we're only looking at the games where Barkley didn't appear in at all and Luiz appeared in, even as a sub. its just the following. Again, if there are any mistakes please point them out.

v Sheffield(H)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Fulham(A)-Conceded 0 goals.

v West Ham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v Wolves(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v West Brom(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v Palace(H)-Conceded 0 goals

v Chelsea(A)-Conceded 1 goal

V United(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Wolves(H)-Conceded 0 goals

V Palace(A)-Conceded 3 goals

V Tottenham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

 

Which comes out to 0.90 goals conceded per game for 11 games so even then, I'm still disputing the figure you cited and this would be the less accurate figure for our purposes(measuring the impact of Luiz on the team's defence without Barkley)

Edited August 8, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[Kiwivillan]

18 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

V Newcastle(A)-Conceded 1 goals

V Tottenham(H)-Conceded 2 goals

V Liverpool(A)-Conceded 2 goals

1 goal conceded in each match after Barkley subbed on 

20 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

V Tottenham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

We won 2-1 and the goal we conceded Luiz wasn't on yet

[KangarooVillan]

9 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

Luiz’s stats

Rodri’s stats:

I wouldn’t exactly say Rodri is a crushing DM, they’re very similar, so what’s your point??

[KangarooVillan]

1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Its a lot more than just 9 games if you consider the games where Barkley was only on as a sub or was subbed off early(Brighton game due to injury). The following is the list of games I've checked which meet that criteria. I'm also ignoring games where Luiz didn't start obviously. If there's mistakes in my information below point them out please because to get this information its a bit tedious and therefore prone to  error.

v Sheffield(H)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Fulham(A)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Brighton(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v West Ham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v Wolves(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v West Brom(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v Palace(H)-Conceded 0 goals

v Chelsea(A)-Conceded 1 goal

V United(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Wolves(H)-Conceded 0 goals

V Newcastle(A)-Conceded 1 goals

V Tottenham(H)-Conceded 2 goals

V Liverpool(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Man City(H)-Conceded 2 goals

V Palace(A)-Conceded 3 goals

 

That still comes out to about 1.13 goals conceded per game.

 

If we're only looking at the games where Barkley didn't appear in at all and Luiz appeared in, even as a sub. its just the following. Again, if there are any mistakes please point them out.

v Sheffield(H)-Conceded 0 goals.

v Fulham(A)-Conceded 0 goals.

v West Ham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

v Wolves(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v West Brom(A)-Conceded 0 goals

v Palace(H)-Conceded 0 goals

v Chelsea(A)-Conceded 1 goal

V United(A)-Conceded 2 goals

V Wolves(H)-Conceded 0 goals

V Palace(A)-Conceded 3 goals

V Tottenham(A)-Conceded 2 goals

 

Which comes out to 0.90 goals conceded per game for 11 games so even then, I'm still disputing the figure you cited and this would be the less accurate figure for our purposes(measuring the impact of Luiz on the team's defence without Barkley)

I like the way you operate

[MrBlack]

So, assuming he gets a 3 week break, and then needs at least 2 to get fully up to speed, I wouldn't expect him to be starting a game until game week 4 at the earliest, and probably 5. That's a hefty time we'll be without him. 

Given Sanson is also coming back from injury we're quite short of options for our first few games.

Could be struggling to force his way back in if we get off to a good start, although hopefully Dean rotates things a bit more this season!

[Vive_La_Villa]

So are we saying we were good defensively with Luiz as long as Barkley wasn’t playing?

[villalad21]

Get real.

The defence and Emi was greatly overworked last season because of the midfield getting bypassed so easily.

Our defensive stats improved last season but that wasn't because of McGinn or Luiz.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 hours ago, KangarooVillan said:

Luiz’s stats

Rodri’s stats:

I wouldn’t exactly say Rodri is a crushing DM, they’re very similar, so what’s your point??

Well i'm certain Rodri probably had less last ditch stuff to do defensively, ( Blocks etc ) for obvious reasons however, Aerial duels, tackles and Clearances stand out to me.

To me this still makes Rodri a superior player, i'd be interested to see the rest of his stats.

Aside from that, you realise the quotes I posted weren't necessarily about the individual player right?

It was more to point out the myth that DMs and Holding Mids aren't a thing anymore apparently.

Yet in Citys final against Chelsea, most would agree that, his failure to play one, is what cost them tthe match.

Guess which player ran the show that day? A tiny little midfielder... who is good at everything, notably, breaking up play.

Then the argument after is " The DM role is now more about positional play " which is great, but what's the point in taking up the right positions and then getting outmuscled, brushed off the ball or losing possession?

Edited August 8, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Sulberto21]

7 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Get real.

The defence and Emi was greatly overworked last season because of the midfield getting bypassed so easily.

Our defensive stats improved last season but that wasn't because of McGinn or Luiz.

*After the covid breakout.

Before this we were 2nd for winning from taking the lead and 3rd best for shots faced.

Source - Sky sports graphic during the man shitty game.

So before the covid outbreak at the club we had one of the best defences in many metrics.

[villalad21]

3 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

*After the covid breakout.

Before this we were 2nd for winning from taking the lead and 3rd best for shots faced.

Source - Sky sports graphic during the man shitty game.

So before the covid outbreak at the club we had one of the best defences in many metrics.

And Arsenal would finish in the top 3 if you only count 2021.

Unfortunately a season last from August till May and that's when the league is decided.

[Sulberto21]

Just now, villalad21 said:

And Arsenal would finish in the top 3 if you only count 2021.

Unfortunately a season last from August till May and that's when the league is decided.

The covid outbreak affected the squad far more than is being reported by the club. We went from being mid block to low block. Big difference. We dropped off badly.

The correlation is plain to see. 

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, Sulberto21 said:

The covid outbreak affected the squad far more than is being reported by the club. We went from being mid block to low block. Big difference. We dropped off badly.

The correlation is plain to see. 

 Because he played the same 11 players every week. 

Injuries and fatigue is inevitable. 

You've got to rotate players to keep them fresh. 

[Sulberto21]

Just now, villalad21 said:

 Because he played the same 11 players every week. 

Injuries and fatigue is inevitable. 

You've got to rotate players to keep them fresh. 

Yes ignore the fact that we had a complete shutdown for two weeks and we didn't look the same after that.

[KangarooVillan]

11 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well i'm certain Rodri probably had less last ditch stuff to do defensively, ( Blocks etc ) for obvious reasons however, Aerial duels, tackles and Clearances stand out to me.

To me this still makes Rodri a superior player, i'd be interested to see the rest of his stats.

Aside from that, you realise the quotes I posted weren't necessarily about the individual player right?

It was more to point out the myth that DMs and Holding Mids aren't a thing anymore apparently.

Yet in Citys final against Chelsea, most would agree that, his failure to play one, is what cost them tthe match.

Guess which player ran the show that day? A tiny little midfielder... who is good at everything, notably, breaking up play.

Tbh I think the blocks thing is how our game plan is designed - a lot of our players have a decent amount of blocks and it’s one thing I noticed last year, we’d be hemmed in the box and block like our lives depended on it.

I don’t think the DM is a myth - I am wary though of people using Rodri’s defensive game as an example of what we need as those articles did. Rodri is the better player, but defensively they’re similar.

RE Luiz, I don’t think he had his best season last year - we still conceded the 6th fewest goals though so we must be doing something right. Additionally, there’s some good posts on the Luiz thread about the Barkley impact on the overall team defence. I do think Smith is looking more at the overall team’s ability to press and pressure, which DM or not is the blueprint with Man City and Liverpool.

And re Kante, when he was Dougie’s age he was playing in Ligue 2 - Doug has all the tools to be a similar player and re capture his form post lockdown 19/20.

[Olof82Mellberg4]

McGinn is the issue, not Luiz

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, KangarooVillan said:

Tbh I think the blocks thing is how our game plan is designed - a lot of our players have a decent amount of blocks and it’s one thing I noticed last year, we’d be hemmed in the box and block like our lives depended on it.

I don’t think the DM is a myth - I am wary though of people using Rodri’s defensive game as an example of what we need as those articles did. Rodri is the better player, but defensively they’re similar.

RE Luiz, I don’t think he had his best season last year - we still conceded the 6th fewest goals though so we must be doing something right. Additionally, there’s some good posts on the Luiz thread about the Barkley impact on the overall team defence. I do think Smith is looking more at the overall team’s ability to press and pressure, which DM or not is the blueprint with Man City and Liverpool.

And re Kante, when he was Dougie’s age he was playing in Ligue 2 - Doug has all the tools to be a similar player and re capture his form post lockdown 19/20.

Problem is mate, some are so defensive , they think the criticisms of Luiz is us wanting rid, or trying to say he's not a good player or has good qualities.

I think pretty much all of us agree that he has great technical, skill, and passing ability. The main disagreement is whether we think he is suited to the role we are trying to play him in. I've commented a few times, that to me, the best I've seen him, is usually further up the pitch .

Granted, I've also noted that, to get the best out of him, in the position they seem to want, the midfield setup has to change, or the surrounding players have to step up their game massively.

But I've also wondered if the " protector " needing protecting is counter productive?

As some have noted, and we could say this about most of our positions in the squad ( That seems to be improving though ), is if we had a hybrid of Nakamba and Luiz, we would have an elite midfielder. Then again those would most likely be 2 - 3 times the price.

We don't dislike Luiz by any stretch, alot of us just disagree on his position is the setup.

[Kiwivillan]

Luiz creates fast counter attack transitions inside our half. It'll go through another 2-3 players and a goal will be scored but in no one's mind is Luiz responsible. People only think of scorer and assister

[John]

I really wish we would stop having a go at one of our own players. If it's not Douglas, it's McGinn and it was Targett not too long ago. Opposing fans do not need any help in giving Villa players stick, they are rather good at it themselves. Let's focus on what they do for our club and remember that other clubs would not turn down the opportunity to make them their player, if we gave them half a chance. That's a bit different to when we could not find teams to take the players we didn't want off our hands.