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Douglas Luiz


LondonLax

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22 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

The problem is that people are using labels. Things like DM, CM etc, but that’s missing the point. Let’s assume that some body has to play as a slightly deeper central midfielder. In that position he has to have the basics like tackling and closing down, that’s a given. The better players will have a good range of passing too and of course will work their socks off. The one thing that is harder to define is that to be really great, they have to be able to have an almost impossible to label ability to control the game. Some players create time and space because they just can. Someone once said that Macca could create space by standing in it. I remember times when there seemed to be chaos in our box and we just knew that the opposition would score but then suddenly the ball was at his feet, everyone else seemed to magically stop playing and step back, Macca seemed to have an age to calmly step forward or sometimes launch the ball into row Z, whatever it was it was almost always the right thing to do. He didn’t just read the game he owned it. Everyone else on the pitch whether they were our players or theirs, knew he was in charge.

You can label it if you want, but if we can identify a player like that to control the centre of the pitch then we should move heaven and earth to get him. If we do and with the talent that we are gathering to play with him, we’ll need a trophy room not a trophy cabinet. 

couldn't agree more Dave....spot on.

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7 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Yawn… condescending or not I know I’m right and so do modern football coaches.. Modern day DM is more about positional play, intercepting the ball and recycling it … A Crunching tackling DM is from a bygone era … 

Quote

But just why did Guardiola again shackle the creativity of İlkay Gündoğan when he's top scorer for the club this season? Instead the German was held back in a defensive midfield role while Rodri and Fernandinho started on the bench. At least one of the positional specialists have started in every game apart from one in City's 60-match season.

Quote

The Bayern legend has questioned the Catalan's decision to omit Fernandinho and Rodri from his starting line-up against Chelsea

Guardiola opted to start the match without Rodri or Fernandinho occupying a holding midfield role and Matthaus believes his job at Etihad Stadium could be under threat after seeing a major tactical risk backfire.

 

 

Edited by JAMAICAN-VILLAN
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15 minutes ago, TRO said:

and thats not crucial...you make is sound like its cosmetic, "like it would be nice"......we are trying to challenge for Europe.

Not from me he doesn't no.....because so far, excluding post covid 2019/20.....He hasn't shown it to me.

I disagree with your last line.

we were challenging for europe without one until our best player got injured last season.

Edited by abdomlahor
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Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

Yawn… what’s your point ? If you read my posts properly, I’m saying some people’s conceptions of what a modern day DM is  wrong and an outdated view. Your purposely missing my point … The old school style brute defensive midfielder is dead and the new breed of DM is more about positional play, … Ive explained enough and those with blinkers on won’t get it so no point debating. End of the day we should consider ourselves lucky we have a 23 yo Brazilian international in our midfield. McGinn and Barkley were the issues last season not Luiz. 

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1 minute ago, thabucks said:

Yawn… what’s your point ? If you read my posts properly, I’m saying some people’s conceptions of what a modern day DM is  wrong and an outdated view. Your purposely missing my point … The old school style brute defensive midfielder is dead and the new breed of DM is more about positional play, … Ive explained enough and those with blinkers on won’t get it so no point debating. End of the day we should consider ourselves lucky we have a 23 yo Brazilian international in our midfield. McGinn and Barkley were the issues last season not Luiz. 

Grealish getting injured and us having no clue how to play without him was the issue. 

And Barkley

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12 minutes ago, Indigo said:

I think half the problem with this Luiz debate is the confirmation bias on either side. There's been games where he's had the best defensive stats out of every midfielder on the pitch and has still been given stick for not doing the job of a "proper DM" but similarly some of us have probably let his inconsistencies slide because of how high a ceiling he has shown to have. Whatever the case, he's shown that there's a serious player in there, but it's up to him to do it on a regular basis and keep up and fit in with the level of ambitions the club is going to continue to have.

I have never said he is a bad player, but in the role he has for us, he needs to develop and edge to his game.

On the whole his defensive stats support my view and further more not once on VT did he get MOTM in 30 odd games, its a part of the team where that should be attainable.

This is not meant to be a character assasination, it started out as an effort to improve us to get European football.

We have a formidable front line and a competent back 5......but if we can't defend that back line or feed the front line, we will not fulfil our dreams.....its the engine room, that needs attention.

If we have to rely on moments in a game and not improve our control in some games like Leicester did today......we will not fulfil our ambitions.

If we have any notion of improving our control of a game....we need to be sure, we have the players to do it.

Edited by TRO
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17 minutes ago, Danishlad said:

A good time to cash in I think, and find someone who can do whatever he is supposed to do, but better.

I don't see this calmness on the ball, unless he has acres of space. I see him hide when under pressure. Get caught out of position a lot, lose almost every physical duel, and give away penalties. 

But I also see the occasional good pass, or Brazilian flick. I also see him closing down space like Carlos Sanchez used to. But it isn't at a very high level.

Some on here think he would be a better player in a more attacking role. Im not sure which though. He isn't an 8 or a ten for me. Not in the premier league. I would generally grade his defensive skills at below average, playmaking skills at average, physicality at below average, attacking skills at average.

An upgrade in this position is the next move for me. 

 

 

 

I see it, as you do. 

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2 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Yawn… what’s your point ? If you read my posts properly, I’m saying some people’s conceptions of what a modern day DM is  wrong and an outdated view. Your purposely missing my point … The old school style brute defensive midfielder is dead and the new breed of DM is more about positional play, … Ive explained enough and those with blinkers on won’t get it so no point debating. End of the day we should consider ourselves lucky we have a 23 yo Brazilian international in our midfield. McGinn and Barkley were the issues last season not Luiz. 

It doesn't matter what your definition of a dm is, we need one who can play that role either as a 'modern day DM' or an 'older style DM'.....a challenge is a challenge no matter what decade you are in and you can stand where you want...... if a player trys to go passed you a challenge  has to happen. How that challenge  is made is important.....no free kicks 

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8 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Yawn… what’s your point ? If you read my posts properly, I’m saying some people’s conceptions of what a modern day DM is  wrong and an outdated view. Your purposely missing my point … The old school style brute defensive midfielder is dead and the new breed of DM is more about positional play, … Ive explained enough and those with blinkers on won’t get it so no point debating. End of the day we should consider ourselves lucky we have a 23 yo Brazilian international in our midfield. McGinn and Barkley were the issues last season not Luiz. 

whose mentioned that?...its a figment of your imagination.

It might be about positional play, but you cannot dismiss physicality either.  Application is essential, contact is essential.

you are obsessed with Brazil, thats old fashioned Argentina are the new kids on the Copa America block.

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This guy is a modern day DM that isn't a DM.  Tackles, pressures, dribbles and passes. We need someone like him, or  ideally him:

Screenshot_20210807-223750_Chrome.jpg

 

Luiz didn't do enough of any of these last year. I think he has the ability to do most of then, except tackle. I also do think we need someone there who can.

Edited by MrBlack
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3 minutes ago, TRO said:

whose mentioned that?...its a figment of your imagination.

It might be about positional play, but you cannot dismiss physicality either.  Application is essential, contact is essential.

you are obsessed with Brazil, thats old fashioned Argentina are the new kids on the Copa America block.

You have banged on about it for McGrath knows how long… and you always harp on back to the good olde days of football in your eyes. Games moved on Tro - simples.  And now you are telling me now that Luiz isn’t physical enough. Did you watch the Euro 2020 final ? How did the smaller Italian midfielders do against ours ? 

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20 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Grealish getting injured and us having no clue how to play without him was the issue. 

And Barkley

And McGinn being shit and undroppable… Our attacking intent last season was give the ball to Jack and hope he does something.. Luiz will perform better next season I believe as we have more attacking options for him to seek out. 

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49 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Serious question for @TRO and @JAMAICAN-VILLAN 

How would you compare Luiz with Stilyan Petrov?

I prefer Stan, but I know where you are coming from....Stan for me was a " Pick pocket" he intercepted more than tackled....He read the game well and won the ball that way.

Look, I don't care how they do it....they don't have to be the worlds best tackler.....but they must be able to stop the opposition having their own way, now I know that is not always possible, but the trick is to try and do it more often than not.

This is not having a go at Dougie, McGinn is not great either....my point is we need a better specialist, who thrives at stopping raids and turns the ball over and can start the attack......that's what controlling games is.

If we we have any ambitions of European Football, we have to display and ability, to have control in a game, better then we have in the past.....the 2 in the middle is a good place to start finding the improvement, however that is done.

Edited by TRO
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1 minute ago, thabucks said:

And McGinn being shit and undroppable… Our attacking intent last season was give the ball to Jack and hope he does something.. Luiz will perform better next season I believe as we have more attacking options for him to seek out. 

I like John McGinn.....but you have a point, I agree.

Yes, I agree with the attacking plan too, and I do visualize and improvement....I have never doubted Dougies ability on the ball in offensive situations, (but that is not what i am picking him up for, he can lose it duels too easily).....I hope you are right.

as a side note.....did you see Ake's stumble today when Iheanacho challenged him, thats a result of being outmuscled, he lost control, mentally and physically....Dougie has moments like that too.....if he can improve fine, I will applaud him.

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46 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

Rightly or wrongly, I know this Russian fella who may well have sent the Catalan gentleman back to his sunny homeland by now. 

Edited by DaveAV1
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37 minutes ago, thabucks said:

You have banged on about it for McGrath knows how long… and you always harp on back to the good olde days of football in your eyes. Games moved on Tro - simples.  And now you are telling me now that Luiz isn’t physical enough. Did you watch the Euro 2020 final ? How did the smaller Italian midfielders do against ours ? 

whaaaaaaaaat....That was fiesty, they got stuck in and out fought us in the second half....I don't care about the size as long as the job gets done.

I am from the school a good big un, will beat a good little un, I can't deny that, because like it or lump it, the ball sometimes finds itself in the air and when it does its nice to be able to deal with it....big'uns have more of a chance.

I have a memory, sorry for being so old.....I have a memory, so I can refer to things, things change of course, but some things remain very similar, the grass is still green and players still want to play with the best, I could go on.

No I don't think Luiz is physical enough, he is easily brushed aside.

Your reference to the Euro Final, destroys your argument.....because those modestly built Italians dominated that midfield, with ball control, combative nous, tenacity and determination.....which proves the point its not size, its having the will and the other ingredients I have mentioned.

I point has never centred around they have to be big, there are alternatives....but they have to do the job, and they did.

PS Turning in now....thanks for the ding dong.

Edited by TRO
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29 minutes ago, TRO said:

I prefer Stan, but I know where you are coming from....Stan for me was a " Pick pocket" he intercepted more than tackled....He read the game well and won the ball that way.

Look, I don't care how they do it....they don't have to be the worlds best tackler.....but they must be able to stop the opposition having their own way, now I know that is not always possible, but the trick is to try and do it more often than not.

This is not having a go at Dougie, McGinn is not great either....my point is we need a better specialist, who thrives at stopping raids and turns the ball over and can start the attack......that's what controlling games is.

If we we have any ambitions of European Football, we have to display and ability, to have control in a game, better then we have in the past.....the 2 in the middle is a good place to start finding the improvement, however that is done.

There were games last season where Luiz made the trains run, a lot of fans didn’t  notice it and goes unrewarded.

He is still very young and hasn’t had a break for nearly 2 seasons and the best DM’s don’t mature until they are around 25/26 years of age, he has some time.

But I also agree we need something different to protect the back 4 when we are under more pressure, we know the games.

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1 hour ago, TRO said:

I see it, as you do. 

But but he's a Brazilian International... 

 

 

 

I do think I see the potential, but will it ever come to fruition... guess we'll see this season. 

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6 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

2 goals, both of which were absolute worldies from outside the box. That's besides the point though. You asked whose job it is to stop raids through the middle?

I want to speak to the idea of a players job on the field.  Some seem to look a DM, see the defensive part of his name, and solely apply the job of defending to him.  Their is only one job that falls to a single player in football and that's the goalkeeper. He is the only player who can use his hands to prevent a goal. No other player can help in that endeavor. Every other job is performed by multiple individuals. Defense especially. 

Douglas looked great the first half of the season. Actually, the entire team looked good from a defensive standpoint. Then Barkley tweaked his hammy and became a non-entity from a defensive standpoint for the rest of the season.  That threw the entire balance of our midfield off and we never really got it back. 

Could Douglas improve his game, absolutely. He is only 23 and has not even gotten close to entering his prime years. Defending is a team game though. Everyone must track their runners. Fullbacks can't be left on an island 2V1 and the same goes for our midfielders. 

Doug was also a victim of the old 2 on 1 situation a number of times. Meaning someone let their man go. 

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5 hours ago, TRO said:

I have never said he is a bad player, but in the role he has for us, he needs to develop and edge to his game.

On the whole his defensive stats support my view and further more not once on VT did he get MOTM in 30 odd games, its a part of the team where that should be attainable.

This is not meant to be a character assasination, it started out as an effort to improve us to get European football.

We have a formidable front line and a competent back 5......but if we can't defend that back line or feed the front line, we will not fulfil our dreams.....its the engine room, that needs attention.

If we have to rely on moments in a game and not improve our control in some games like Leicester did today......we will not fulfil our ambitions.

If we have any notion of improving our control of a game....we need to be sure, we have the players to do it.

As I  more or less alluded to, I'm essentially on the same page as you albeit think despite what you say he has in fact shown the necessary attributes to succeed in this role and that consistency is the only thing holding him back. I don't really care for MOTM votes in individual games, we have seen both from the tail end of the survival season and isolated games last time out that he has it about him to excel in this team. The fact they were isolated is his issue to solve (although I do feel for him that he's never actually had a proper pre-season since joining the club), but the scope is there for Smith and Co. to work with and that's the main thing.

I would love a Bissouma esque signing as I think it addresses direct needs, but if they trust Luiz to improve and grow into  the position in the team then I'll certainly understand the logic behind it.

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