Douglas Luiz

[abdomlahor]

You would think we were terrible defensively going off this thread. I don’t think we’re desperate for this kind of player. It would be nice if we could find someone like Ndidi or Fabinho but those guys aren’t exactly a dime a dozen. 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We can go around in circles, then talk about how the concept of a DM is outdated.

Then go on to be shown examples of players fulfilling the roles Doug is supposed to fill, as proof that the concept is outdated.

Yet the players listed as examples , as the " Modern " versions, are performing better than him, in ALL the areas used in the for/against argument...

Spot the issue here?

so whats your view Shaun?

Edited August 7, 2021 by TRO

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

so whats your view Shaun?

 

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Fair play, would it be easier if we say, he has been shit at whatever the modern version of this modern/updated player is?

Lol.

Some people are so in denial, that they purposely ignore the MANY times we've said, if he was top notch at whatever he is supposed to be doing for us, there wouldn't be any stick.

Do you reckon people would be upset with a Kamara, Kante type, Bissouma etc? ( Off the top of head examples ).

If we could get an ALL rounder who could " control the game " etc as you're all diverting to, and it worked, that would be ok too.

What was everybody, including pundits, biggest critique of the Man City lineup/setup in the Champions League final?

 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, abdomlahor said:

You would think we were terrible defensively going off this thread. I don’t think we’re desperate for this kind of player. It would be nice if we could find someone like Ndidi or Fabinho but those guys aren’t exactly a dime a dozen. 

I'm not trying to be awkward, but you either think we need one or you don't.

This is the centre of the point, I think its crucial to challenge for European football, to have a good quality one.....some obviously don't, which is fair dinkum.

I don't go with the notion, of they are hard to find...all good players are hard to find....other ambitious clubs like us, find them.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

 

I concur.

[PaulC]

I thought he had a poor season. This season he really needs to step up and be counted. Whether that as a no.6 or no.8 I'm not sure. 

[Kiwivillan]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Hey...of course we did, but they had the night off due to our overwhelming offensive play.

so why do all the best teams have them?....i guess that question will be down to interpretation now.

how many games are like the Liverpool game, that was a one off.....but McGinn and Luiz still played as I recall and one at least was still a DM.

You can also play with a great DM and still lose a game, I think you are starting to miss the point.

Luiz McGinn Sanson Nakamba plus the youth are plenty good enough to cover 2 positions in CM but some people on here would ship them all off for some fancy new signings.  That's my point 

[DaveAV1]

The problem is that people are using labels. Things like DM, CM etc, but that’s missing the point. Let’s assume that some body has to play as a slightly deeper central midfielder. In that position he has to have the basics like tackling and closing down, that’s a given. The better players will have a good range of passing too and of course will work their socks off. The one thing that is harder to define is that to be really great, they have to be able to have an almost impossible to label ability to control the game. Some players create time and space because they just can. Someone once said that Macca could create space by standing in it. I remember times when there seemed to be chaos in our box and we just knew that the opposition would score but then suddenly the ball was at his feet, everyone else seemed to magically stop playing and step back, Macca seemed to have an age to calmly step forward or sometimes launch the ball into row Z, whatever it was it was almost always the right thing to do. He didn’t just read the game he owned it. Everyone else on the pitch whether they were our players or theirs, knew he was in charge.

You can label it if you want, but if we can identify a player like that to control the centre of the pitch then we should move heaven and earth to get him. If we do and with the talent that we are gathering to play with him, we’ll need a trophy room not a trophy cabinet. 

[KentVillan]

6 minutes ago, abdomlahor said:

You would think we were terrible defensively going off this thread. I don’t think we’re desperate for this kind of player. It would be nice if we could find someone like Ndidi or Fabinho but those guys aren’t exactly a dime a dozen. 

Yep, we had one of the better defences in the league.

Dougie’s critics won’t give him any credit for that, but clearly he must have been involved. It wasn’t all down to Martinez (no keeper is good enough to singlehandedly get those figures without support from the players in front of them).

There’s a lot of obvious hyperbole and attention seeking in these threads - avatar with a cross through an ex player’s head is a giveaway that someone enjoys being controversial.

[roonst83]

If we could merge Luiz and Marvelous then we’d have one hell of a player. 

Luiz is calm and composed on the ball but not good off the ball. Nakamba is excellent off the ball but poor on the ball.

I would therefore pick one or the other with McGinn pushed a bit further up in rotation against teams that suit more of an enforcer role for Marvelous against teams where we won’t have much of the ball and utilise Luiz against teams where we’ll likely have a fair bit of the possession. 
 

Edit : completely forgot about Sanson. Could be used as a double pivot with one of Nakamba/ Luiz with McGinn pushed further up too behind the attacking three.

Edited August 7, 2021 by roonst83

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Fair play, would it be easier if we say, he has been shit at whatever the modern version of this modern/updated player is?

Lol.

Some people are so in denial, that they purposely ignore the MANY times we've said, if he was top notch at whatever he is supposed to be doing for us, there wouldn't be any stick.

Do you reckon people would be upset with a Kamara, Kante type, Bissouma etc? ( Off the top of head examples ).

If we could get an ALL rounder who could " control the game " etc as you're all diverting to, and it worked, that would be ok too.

What was everybody, including pundits, biggest critique of the Man City lineup/setup in the Champions League final?

"Control the game".....Key.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Luiz McGinn Sanson Nakamba plus the youth are plenty good enough to cover 2 positions in CM but some people on here would ship them all off for some fancy new signings.  That's my point 

Ohhhhhhhhhh....I get it now.

Then they better, get better at giving us some control in a game......all for it.

[abdomlahor]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I'm not trying to be awkward, but you either think we need one or you don't.

well yeah… I don’t think we necessarily need one. but if we can find the next Ndidi, yes obviously we should do it because he offers both physicality and playmaking ability. there’s no point in signing another nakamba is there?

Luiz does not get the respect he deserves for his defensive contribution. he’s improved massively in this area since he began here.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, abdomlahor said:

well yeah… I don’t think we necessarily need one. but if we can find the next Ndidi, yes obviously we should do it because he offers both physicality and playmaking ability. there’s no point in signing another nakamba is there?

Luiz does not get the respect he deserves for his defensive contribution. he’s improved massively in this area since he began here.

and thats not crucial...you make is sound like its cosmetic, "like it would be nice"......we are trying to challenge for Europe.

Not from me he doesn't no.....because so far, excluding post covid 2019/20.....He hasn't shown it to me.

I disagree with your last line.

Edited August 7, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Luiz McGinn Sanson Nakamba plus the youth are plenty good enough to cover 2 positions in CM but some people on here would ship them all off for some fancy new signings.  That's my point 

Well, we'll see won't we....I hope you are right.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

11 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

The problem is that people are using labels. Things like DM, CM etc, but that’s missing the point. Let’s assume that some body has to play as a slightly deeper central midfielder. In that position he has to have the basics like tackling and closing down, that’s a given. The better players will have a good range of passing too and of course will work their socks off. The one thing that is harder to define is that to be really great, they have to be able to have an almost impossible to label ability to control the game. Some players create time and space because they just can. Someone once said that Macca could create space by standing in it. I remember times when there seemed to be chaos in our box and we just knew that the opposition would score but then suddenly the ball was at his feet, everyone else seemed to magically stop playing and step back, Macca seemed to have an age to calmly step forward or sometimes launch the ball into row Z, whatever it was it was almost always the right thing to do. He didn’t just read the game he owned it. Everyone else on the pitch whether they were our players or theirs, knew he was in charge.

You can label it if you want, but if we can identify a player like that to control the centre of the pitch then we should move heaven and earth to get him. If we do and with the talent that we are gathering to play with him, we’ll need a trophy room not a trophy cabinet. 

Summed up, i've just run out of the patience to have the same circular argument, what you've explained is the basis of what we've been saying all along!

 

[KentVillan]

Serious question for @TRO and @JAMAICAN-VILLAN 

How would you compare Luiz with Stilyan Petrov?

[Danishlad]

A good time to cash in I think, and find someone who can do whatever he is supposed to do, but better.

I don't see this calmness on the ball, unless he has acres of space. I see him hide when under pressure. Get caught out of position a lot, lose almost every physical duel, and give away penalties. 

But I also see the occasional good pass, or Brazilian flick. I also see him closing down space like Carlos Sanchez used to. But it isn't at a very high level.

Some on here think he would be a better player in a more attacking role. Im not sure which though. He isn't an 8 or a ten for me. Not in the premier league. I would generally grade his defensive skills at below average, playmaking skills at average, physicality at below average, attacking skills at average.

An upgrade in this position is the next move for me. 

 

 

 

[thabucks]

Yawn… condescending or not I know I’m right and so do modern football coaches.. Modern day DM is more about positional play, intercepting the ball and recycling it … A Crunching tackling DM is from a bygone era … 

[Indigo]

I think half the problem with this Luiz debate is the confirmation bias on either side. There's been games where he's had the best defensive stats out of every midfielder on the pitch and has still been given stick for not doing the job of a "proper DM" but similarly some of us have probably let his inconsistencies slide because of how high a ceiling he has shown to have. Whatever the case, he's shown that there's a serious player in there, but it's up to him to do it on a regular basis and keep up and fit in with the level of ambitions the club is going to continue to have.