Douglas Luiz

[Vive_La_Villa]

27 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

 Because he played the same 11 players every week. 

Injuries and fatigue is inevitable. 

You've got to rotate players to keep them fresh. 

If you have European and cup competitions then yes. There is no need for lots of rotation for a 38 game season. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[sne]

Win, lose or draw at least it's nice to know where all the smug "I told you so" posts will be next season.

Get digging those trenches because the battle for internet points will be decided here (and in the Smith thread)

[Kiwivillan]

5 minutes ago, John said:

I really wish we would stop having a go at one of our own players. If it's not Douglas, it's McGinn and it was Targett not too long ago. Opposing fans do not need any help in giving Villa players stick, they are rather good at it themselves. Let's focus on what they do for our club and remember that other clubs would not turn down the opportunity to make them their player, if we gave them half a chance. That's a bit different to when we could not find teams to take the players we didn't want off our hands.  

Damn straight

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

14 minutes ago, John said:

I really wish we would stop having a go at one of our own players. If it's not Douglas, it's McGinn and it was Targett not too long ago. Opposing fans do not need any help in giving Villa players stick, they are rather good at it themselves. Let's focus on what they do for our club and remember that other clubs would not turn down the opportunity to make them their player, if we gave them half a chance. That's a bit different to when we could not find teams to take the players we didn't want off our hands.  

Ashley Westwood is the ultimate example. 

[sparrow1988]

9 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Problem is mate, some are so defensive , they think the criticisms of Luiz is us wanting rid, or trying to say he's not a good player or has good qualities.

I think pretty much all of us agree that he has great technical, skill, and passing ability. The main disagreement is whether we think he is suited to the role we are trying to play him in. I've commented a few times, that to me, the best I've seen him, is usually further up the pitch .

Granted, I've also noted that, to get the best out of him, in the position they seem to want, the midfield setup has to change, or the surrounding players have to step up their game massively.

But I've also wondered if the " protector " needing protecting is counter productive?

As some have noted, and we could say this about most of our positions in the squad ( That seems to be improving though ), is if we had a hybrid of Nakamba and Luiz, we would have an elite midfielder. Then again those would most likely be 2 - 3 times the price.

We don't dislike Luiz by any stretch, alot of us just disagree on his position is the setup.

I think there is also a misunderstanding here of the role he is being asked to play, and what role people want him (or someone else) to play, or assumed he is being asked to play. You might have a different understanding of the role someone in his position on the pitch should play as I do or someone else again. Dean Smith might have a completely different interpretation to the two of us of how he wants that player in that position to play. In my opinion Smith, in the main, sees Doug as the best player for that position and the role that he wants him to play. He will change it up from time to time i.e. Nakamba for Leeds, but here's my two cents as to why Deano prefers Doug.

After the covid outbreak (could have been slightly before or after but, for argument's sake, let's say directly after that enforced lay off) we completely changed how we were playing. We were expending much less energy trying to win the ball up the field and relied on our defenders to stop the opposition. We lost the ball and it looked like the plan was retreat in to a compact block and then transition quickly after we won the ball back. Smith probably sees Doug as the ideal player to make this transition due to his passing ability.

Before that break we were pressing much more as a team, putting pressure on and winning the ball back further up the pitch. Luiz was better at winning the ball during this time because the other players were making it harder for the opposition and, by association easier for Doug. IMO, before the break he was being asked to help win the ball further up the field and begin attacks from this position as opposed to, being asked to retreat to form the block, not try to win the ball and transition from deeper.

In the two systems we played Doug was the better option as I think his main responsibility was making that transition from defence to attack. Are the better players at doing this? Yes, of course there are but I don't think that we'll see much of a change in this position on the pitch for a while (contractual situation dependent of course) as Smith sees him as his preferred choice in that part of the pitch for the reasons outlined above and he will not be top of the list to be uprgaded.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

13 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

I think there is also a misunderstanding here of the role he is being asked to play, and what role people want him (or someone else) to play, or assumed he is being asked to play. You might have a different understanding of the role someone in his position on the pitch should play as I do or someone else again. Dean Smith might have a completely different interpretation to the two of us of how he wants that player in that position to play. In my opinion Smith, in the main, sees Doug as the best player for that position and the role that he wants him to play. He will change it up from time to time i.e. Nakamba for Leeds, but here's my two cents as to why Deano prefers Doug.

After the covid outbreak (could have been slightly before or after but, for argument's sake, let's say directly after that enforced lay off) we completely changed how we were playing. We were expending much less energy trying to win the ball up the field and relied on our defenders to stop the opposition. We lost the ball and it looked like the plan was retreat in to a compact block and then transition quickly after we won the ball back. Smith probably sees Doug as the ideal player to make this transition due to his passing ability.

Before that break we were pressing much more as a team, putting pressure on and winning the ball back further up the pitch. Luiz was better at winning the ball during this time because the other players were making it harder for the opposition and, by association easier for Doug. IMO, before the break he was being asked to help win the ball further up the field and begin attacks from this position as opposed to, being asked to retreat to form the block, not try to win the ball and transition from deeper.

In the two systems we played Doug was the better option as I think his main responsibility was making that transition from defence to attack. Are the better players at doing this? Yes, of course there are but I don't think that we'll see much of a change in this position on the pitch for a while (contractual situation dependent of course) as Smith sees him as his preferred choice in that part of the pitch for the reasons outlined above and he will not be top of the list to be uprgaded.

True, as others have commented, it will be interesting to see not only how he improves, with a much improved attack, pressing from the front, but the rest of our midfielders.

They should have more time to actually play their games.

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

 Because he played the same 11 players every week. 

Injuries and fatigue is inevitable. 

You've got to rotate players to keep them fresh. 

How is that Douglas Luiz’s fault or a reflection on him as a long term prospect!?

As for all the stats being thrown around. The more detail we go into, the smaller the samples get and the more scope there is for finding spurious correlations.

Luiz’s supporters can pin the blame on Barkley and Covid. Luiz’s critics can say we were more solid with Nakamba, or that his individual stats (which hide things like positioning and pass selection) are poor.

Only solution really is to see how things pan out next season. We don’t yet have enough info to see how his career is likely to pan out.

My guess is we will press much more effectively as a team this season without Barkley and Grealish. That may help all our centre mids look more dominant, including Dougie (if he plays). It’s the quality of the press that makes it easier to catch opposition players in possession. All of these individual player stats happen in the context of the wider team’s performance.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

Ashley Westwood is the ultimate example. 

 

6 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

Ashley Westwood is the ultimate example. 

Would you like him back?

[sharkyvilla]

6 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

I think there is also a misunderstanding here of the role he is being asked to play, and what role people want him (or someone else) to play, or assumed he is being asked to play. You might have a different understanding of the role someone in his position on the pitch should play as I do or someone else again. Dean Smith might have a completely different interpretation to the two of us of how he wants that player in that position to play. In my opinion Smith, in the main, sees Doug as the best player for that position and the role that he wants him to play. He will change it up from time to time i.e. Nakamba for Leeds, but here's my two cents as to why Deano prefers Doug.

After the covid outbreak (could have been slightly before or after but, for argument's sake, let's say directly after that enforced lay off) we completely changed how we were playing. We were expending much less energy trying to win the ball up the field and relied on our defenders to stop the opposition. We lost the ball and it looked like the plan was retreat in to a compact block and then transition quickly after we won the ball back. Smith probably sees Doug as the ideal player to make this transition due to his passing ability.

Before that break we were pressing much more as a team, putting pressure on and winning the ball back further up the pitch. Luiz was better at winning the ball during this time because the other players were making it harder for the opposition and, by association easier for Doug. IMO, before the break he was being asked to help win the ball further up the field and begin attacks from this position as opposed to, being asked to retreat to form the block, not try to win the ball and transition from deeper.

In the two systems we played Doug was the better option as I think his main responsibility was making that transition from defence to attack. Are the better players at doing this? Yes, of course there are but I don't think that we'll see much of a change in this position on the pitch for a while (contractual situation dependent of course) as Smith sees him as his preferred choice in that part of the pitch for the reasons outlined above and he will not be top of the list to be uprgaded.

Totally, the weirdest thing I've read is we need a 6ft+ defensive midfielder to deal with headers like teams still lump it forward these days.  

[villalad21]

6 hours ago, KentVillan said:

How is that Douglas Luiz’s fault or a reflection on him as a long term prospect!?

As for all the stats being thrown around. The more detail we go into, the smaller the samples get and the more scope there is for finding spurious correlations.

Luiz’s supporters can pin the blame on Barkley and Covid. Luiz’s critics can say we were more solid with Nakamba, or that his individual stats (which hide things like positioning and pass selection) are poor.

Only solution really is to see how things pan out next season. We don’t yet have enough info to see how his career is likely to pan out.

My guess is we will press much more effectively as a team this season without Barkley and Grealish. That may help all our centre mids look more dominant, including Dougie (if he plays). It’s the quality of the press that makes it easier to catch opposition players in possession. All of these individual player stats happen in the context of the wider team’s performance.

You can press as well as you want teams will always have their moments in a game where they put you under pressure. Yes even the likes of Burnley and Crystal Palace. And you need your defensive midfielder to deal with that.

Dougie's strengths are on the ball not without it.

Nakamba may surprise us all and really step up this season and we might see Dougie in a more advanced midfield role but I really don't know. Really hope we sign another DM before the window closes.

[Rightdm00]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

Would you like him back?

Westwood was far to good for that relegation diaster team that went down.  Should we want him back now, absolutely not, our ambition is far higher than midtable. 

It was the same with Petrov before him. We love to hate on our #6 then moan like crazy when he's gone. 

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

Would you like him back?

No we have a better version of him in Douglas Luiz but he has proven himself a solid premier league mindfielder in the last few years after his confidence was destroyed here. 

[TRO]

7 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

I think there is also a misunderstanding here of the role he is being asked to play, and what role people want him (or someone else) to play, or assumed he is being asked to play. You might have a different understanding of the role someone in his position on the pitch should play as I do or someone else again. Dean Smith might have a completely different interpretation to the two of us of how he wants that player in that position to play. In my opinion Smith, in the main, sees Doug as the best player for that position and the role that he wants him to play. He will change it up from time to time i.e. Nakamba for Leeds, but here's my two cents as to why Deano prefers Doug.

After the covid outbreak (could have been slightly before or after but, for argument's sake, let's say directly after that enforced lay off) we completely changed how we were playing. We were expending much less energy trying to win the ball up the field and relied on our defenders to stop the opposition. We lost the ball and it looked like the plan was retreat in to a compact block and then transition quickly after we won the ball back. Smith probably sees Doug as the ideal player to make this transition due to his passing ability.

Before that break we were pressing much more as a team, putting pressure on and winning the ball back further up the pitch. Luiz was better at winning the ball during this time because the other players were making it harder for the opposition and, by association easier for Doug. IMO, before the break he was being asked to help win the ball further up the field and begin attacks from this position as opposed to, being asked to retreat to form the block, not try to win the ball and transition from deeper.

In the two systems we played Doug was the better option as I think his main responsibility was making that transition from defence to attack. Are the better players at doing this? Yes, of course there are but I don't think that we'll see much of a change in this position on the pitch for a while (contractual situation dependent of course) as Smith sees him as his preferred choice in that part of the pitch for the reasons outlined above and he will not be top of the list to be uprgaded.

At the outset, the motive behind this debate, was how do we stop opposing teams

raiding us throught the middle and control that midfield to avoid it.

If we have an ambition to achieve European football, we have to find c12 points on top of our 55 last season.....The front looks feasible with the huge investment and the defence showed significant improvement last season.

So, do you think the midfield is capable of punching its weight with our front and back dept's...and driving us on to the target of top 6?

Edited August 8, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

14 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

0.44 goals conceded in 9 games he played with no Barkley. 

well, we have no Barkley, now lets see if it improves.

[TRO]

54 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

Westwood was far to good for that relegation diaster team that went down.  Should we want him back now, absolutely not, our ambition is far higher than midtable. 

It was the same with Petrov before him. We love to hate on our #6 then moan like crazy when he's gone. 

when we don't sufficiently improve the position, its inevitable, fans will pin point it......we are building a really exciting team, but we have to find c12 points on top of the 55 we acheived last season to have chance of European football.

The front line has seen huge investment....The Back line has been well contructed and coached well, to improve last seasons defensive record.

In my opinion the secret to acheiving such lofty ambitions as possibly 6 place is to improve our control of the game, whilst the game is about 11 players the engine room is the place where control usually comes from. I would hazard a guess most Villa fans would suspect that may now be our main area of concern....if you or others think we are strong enough to challenge further up the league, with our current personel there, then fine.....I don't.

If due to another 12 months on, of development and we do, then I will say, I was wrong....but once the season starts we are committed.

I hope we strengthen there, but if we don't, then I hope I am proved wrong.

Edited August 8, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

45 minutes ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

No we have a better version of him in Douglas Luiz but he has proven himself a solid premier league mindfielder in the last few years after his confidence was destroyed here. 

oh.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, tinker said:

It doesn't matter what your definition of a dm is, we need one who can play that role either as a 'modern day DM' or an 'older style DM'.....a challenge is a challenge no matter what decade you are in and you can stand where you want...... if a player trys to go passed you a challenge  has to happen. How that challenge  is made is important.....no free kicks 

is it so hard to grasp?

[TRO]

8 hours ago, sne said:

Win, lose or draw at least it's nice to know where all the smug "I told you so" posts will be next season.

Get digging those trenches because the battle for internet points will be decided here (and in the Smith thread)

really useful contribution to what could be an intriguing debate, of discerning villa fans......just play to the gallery.

[thabucks]

If you cannot appreciate Douglas Luiz as a footballer then I’m slightly lost as in how our views can ever reconcile … so I’m gunna bow out of this thread for a while and just react to reality on the pitch and not a nostalgia warped view & short memories… This thread is literally one of the worst I’ve known for a while for ridiculousness IMO and as my views carry no more weight than anyone else’s respectfully.. it’s just pointless debating it. 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, thabucks said:

If you cannot appreciate Douglas Luiz as a footballer then I’m slightly lost as in how our views can ever reconcile … so I’m gunna bow out of this thread for a while and just react to reality on the pitch and not a nostalgia warped view & short memories… This thread is literally one of the worst I’ve known for a while for ridiculousness IMO and as my views carry no more weight than anyone else’s respectfully.. it’s just pointless debating it. 

That is a pretty good description of a "strawman" argument....that has never been the centre of the debate....you keep harping on about something that has NOT been observed or criticised...its just become your default position....relax, I haven't said get rid of him.

you can't see the point being made without resorting to nonsense of cheap shots at  yesteryear football.....This "modern" Game still requires many attributes of the so called old game, whatever that means.

There is no position on a football field that has become passive as a result of the modern game,  a competitive approach is paramount at every level....and its that midfield competitive need is whats being discussed.

I agree, the debate is null an void...from us anyway.