Douglas Luiz

[HanoiVillan]

"Lord, grant me the self-confidence of a bloke who is able to say the following sentence in all seriousness:"

10 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I just don't see it, I don't think I'll ever see it, and quite frankly if I don't see it by the end of this season I think he'll probably turn out to be an overrated flop.

 

[KentVillan]

How can you watch football and not rate Douglas Luiz, I don’t get it.

Also the people who want their defensive mid to be like Roy Keane... football isn’t refereed like that anymore. There’s no point having a DM who just puts in big tackles, because you can’t kick a team off the park.

What Douglas does really well is keep possession and get the ball to players in attacking positions. He makes it look simple, which is maybe why he doesn’t get much credit for it, but he’s a solid 8/10 performer most games IMO.

Sad thing is some of you will only realise this when he gets injured or sold to a Champions League side.

[Tom13]

12 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

First off, before anyone has a go at me because "sTaTs dOn'T tElL tHe wHoLe sToRy", I'm not the one bringing up his stats in the first place here.

Secondly, those are just 2 defensive stats. There are a lot of defensive stats out there and saying he's not bad at these 2 defensive stats doesn't say much about his defensive work as a whole.

Thirdly, you have to look at them in terms of a per90 basis. If you're looking at their total stats, they're going to be biased to the players who have played a lot of games. To which Luiz definitely benefits from having started and played the entire 90 minutes for a lot of our games.

Fourthly, there are many different breeds of central midfielders, which is why comparing their stats can sometimes be tricky. A defensive midfielder can have decent defensive stats when compared to all central midfielders but be in the bottom end of the scale compared to just defensive midfielders.

Fifth, there are certain defensive stats that really really need to be taken with a grain of salt. This because they are the result of a team's play style then the actual contribution of a player. 

Sixthly(is that a word), I do think he's defensively capable. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a rock in there so really, I agree with you. He simply isn't a CDM. I don't care what anyone says about all his defensive work people say he does that I never seen him do. Which conveniently isn't captured in any stats so I can't bring up any evidence to deny it. Reminds me of how people defended Wesley for always "dragging away defenders" or how Mings contributes with his "leadership" and you could never deny these factors even if you never saw them because they aren't captured in any metrics. So they become easy things to bring up in defence of these players because no one can deny them.

Edit: Seventhly, not against you specifically but my god I do not understand what people see in Douglas Luiz. Which is why I usually avoid these thread nowadays,  simply cannot understand what people are seeing in him and there's no point in really debating further. At least with Mings I see his work despite my criticisms of him, I am just **** annoyed at his once per game mistake that costs us or almost costs us that I don't see any other defender we have doing and the way people constantly excuse them despite them happening being debated over at least once every week.

With Luiz its just, there's just not much there. He's capable defensively and offensively and doesn't drag the team down. Yet somehow people are going around making claims that he's the second most important player in the team and that he's a future barcelona/real madrid/Brazil captain.. How is he more important than our goalkeeper who's arguably the best keeper in the league and our topscorer in Watkins who's almost everything I want in a striker. Seriously, i think Watkins has all the potential to be a top striker in this league, he's just a bit raw and he's certainly contributes more than Luiz for us imo. To even stretch it a bit further, I think Mcginn has very similar attributes to Luiz tbh, but I do think atm he's definitely better. Around the same level defensively but I've noticed recently his long passing has been great, which if anything was something I expected Luiz to do more off.. Cash has been great in the right hand side. Then there's our wingers and attacking midfielders who despite being inconsistent or all match winners on their day, how many times could you say that about Douglas Luiz? I think Hause is sorely underrated as a CB and is more than capable of pushing or even replacing Mings(but that's a discussion for another day) and Konsa has been near faultless. Mings as much as I criticize him is aside from his tendency to switch off is a good, hell even a great defender.

So when you boil it down, I think Douglas Luiz is far from the one of the best players in our starting 11. If anything, he'd be closer to the worst. I just don't see it, I don't think I'll ever see it, and quite frankly if I don't see it by the end of this season I think he'll probably turn out to be an overrated flop. The one largest benefit is his young age and his potential because I do see some raw qualities in there. But he really hasn't put them all together yet and if he doesn't, he's getting no where near the likes of Man City and Juventus.

If you can't see how Douglas is a good player, you can't see footballing intelligence. Which tells me you don't have a good understanding of football.

[Mark_1989]

16 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

First off, before anyone has a go at me because "sTaTs dOn'T tElL tHe wHoLe sToRy", I'm not the one bringing up his stats in the first place here.

Secondly, those are just 2 defensive stats. There are a lot of defensive stats out there and saying he's not bad at these 2 defensive stats doesn't say much about his defensive work as a whole.

Thirdly, you have to look at them in terms of a per90 basis. If you're looking at their total stats, they're going to be biased to the players who have played a lot of games. To which Luiz definitely benefits from having started and played the entire 90 minutes for a lot of our games.

Fourthly, there are many different breeds of central midfielders, which is why comparing their stats can sometimes be tricky. A defensive midfielder can have decent defensive stats when compared to all central midfielders but be in the bottom end of the scale compared to just defensive midfielders.

Fifth, there are certain defensive stats that really really need to be taken with a grain of salt. This because they are the result of a team's play style then the actual contribution of a player. 

Sixthly(is that a word), I do think he's defensively capable. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a rock in there so really, I agree with you. He simply isn't a CDM. I don't care what anyone says about all his defensive work people say he does that I never seen him do. Which conveniently isn't captured in any stats so I can't bring up any evidence to deny it. Reminds me of how people defended Wesley for always "dragging away defenders" or how Mings contributes with his "leadership" and you could never deny these factors even if you never saw them because they aren't captured in any metrics. So they become easy things to bring up in defence of these players because no one can deny them.

Edit: Seventhly, not against you specifically but my god I do not understand what people see in Douglas Luiz. Which is why I usually avoid these thread nowadays,  simply cannot understand what people are seeing in him and there's no point in really debating further. At least with Mings I see his work despite my criticisms of him, I am just **** annoyed at his once per game mistake that costs us or almost costs us that I don't see any other defender we have doing and the way people constantly excuse them despite them happening being debated over at least once every week.

With Luiz its just, there's just not much there. He's capable defensively and offensively and doesn't drag the team down. Yet somehow people are going around making claims that he's the second most important player in the team and that he's a future barcelona/real madrid/Brazil captain.. How is he more important than our goalkeeper who's arguably the best keeper in the league and our topscorer in Watkins who's almost everything I want in a striker. Seriously, i think Watkins has all the potential to be a top striker in this league, he's just a bit raw and he's certainly contributes more than Luiz for us imo. To even stretch it a bit further, I think Mcginn has very similar attributes to Luiz tbh, but I do think atm he's definitely better. Around the same level defensively but I've noticed recently his long passing has been great, which if anything was something I expected Luiz to do more off.. Cash has been great in the right hand side. Then there's our wingers and attacking midfielders who despite being inconsistent or all match winners on their day, how many times could you say that about Douglas Luiz? I think Hause is sorely underrated as a CB and is more than capable of pushing or even replacing Mings(but that's a discussion for another day) and Konsa has been near faultless. Mings as much as I criticize him is aside from his tendency to switch off is a good, hell even a great defender.

So when you boil it down, I think Douglas Luiz is far from the one of the best players in our starting 11. If anything, he'd be closer to the worst. I just don't see it, I don't think I'll ever see it, and quite frankly if I don't see it by the end of this season I think he'll probably turn out to be an overrated flop. The one largest benefit is his young age and his potential because I do see some raw qualities in there. But he really hasn't put them all together yet and if he doesn't, he's getting no where near the likes of Man City and Juventus.

Couldn’t be bothered to read the whole essay but the gist I got was you are not a big fan.

For that alone I question your footballing intelligence.

Nothing personal but anyone who can’t see what he brings to this team must be on the wind up.

[Adam2003]

1 hour ago, Mark_1989 said:

Nothing personal but anyone who can’t see what he brings to this team must be on the wind up.

You are underestimating the lack of knowledge the average football fan has of this sport (and I’ll include myself there - we all come out with this nonsense every now and then!)

[TRO]

17 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

First off, before anyone has a go at me because "sTaTs dOn'T tElL tHe wHoLe sToRy", I'm not the one bringing up his stats in the first place here.

Secondly, those are just 2 defensive stats. There are a lot of defensive stats out there and saying he's not bad at these 2 defensive stats doesn't say much about his defensive work as a whole.

Thirdly, you have to look at them in terms of a per90 basis. If you're looking at their total stats, they're going to be biased to the players who have played a lot of games. To which Luiz definitely benefits from having started and played the entire 90 minutes for a lot of our games.

Fourthly, there are many different breeds of central midfielders, which is why comparing their stats can sometimes be tricky. A defensive midfielder can have decent defensive stats when compared to all central midfielders but be in the bottom end of the scale compared to just defensive midfielders.

Fifth, there are certain defensive stats that really really need to be taken with a grain of salt. This because they are the result of a team's play style then the actual contribution of a player. 

Sixthly(is that a word), I do think he's defensively capable. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a rock in there so really, I agree with you. He simply isn't a CDM. I don't care what anyone says about all his defensive work people say he does that I never seen him do. Which conveniently isn't captured in any stats so I can't bring up any evidence to deny it. Reminds me of how people defended Wesley for always "dragging away defenders" or how Mings contributes with his "leadership" and you could never deny these factors even if you never saw them because they aren't captured in any metrics. So they become easy things to bring up in defence of these players because no one can deny them.

Edit: Seventhly, not against you specifically but my god I do not understand what people see in Douglas Luiz. Which is why I usually avoid these thread nowadays,  simply cannot understand what people are seeing in him and there's no point in really debating further. At least with Mings I see his work despite my criticisms of him, I am just **** annoyed at his once per game mistake that costs us or almost costs us that I don't see any other defender we have doing and the way people constantly excuse them despite them happening being debated over at least once every week.

With Luiz its just, there's just not much there. He's capable defensively and offensively and doesn't drag the team down. Yet somehow people are going around making claims that he's the second most important player in the team and that he's a future barcelona/real madrid/Brazil captain.. How is he more important than our goalkeeper who's arguably the best keeper in the league and our topscorer in Watkins who's almost everything I want in a striker. Seriously, i think Watkins has all the potential to be a top striker in this league, he's just a bit raw and he's certainly contributes more than Luiz for us imo. To even stretch it a bit further, I think Mcginn has very similar attributes to Luiz tbh, but I do think atm he's definitely better. Around the same level defensively but I've noticed recently his long passing has been great, which if anything was something I expected Luiz to do more off.. Cash has been great in the right hand side. Then there's our wingers and attacking midfielders who despite being inconsistent or all match winners on their day, how many times could you say that about Douglas Luiz? I think Hause is sorely underrated as a CB and is more than capable of pushing or even replacing Mings(but that's a discussion for another day) and Konsa has been near faultless. Mings as much as I criticize him is aside from his tendency to switch off is a good, hell even a great defender.

So when you boil it down, I think Douglas Luiz is far from the one of the best players in our starting 11. If anything, he'd be closer to the worst. I just don't see it, I don't think I'll ever see it, and quite frankly if I don't see it by the end of this season I think he'll probably turn out to be an overrated flop. The one largest benefit is his young age and his potential because I do see some raw qualities in there. But he really hasn't put them all together yet and if he doesn't, he's getting no where near the likes of Man City and Juventus.

I think your post is very good and you make some points worthy of consideration

I think folk are misconstruing what is being said.

like all good 22 year olds...he is learning.....personally with what i see, I don't see him as a dedicated CDM, but that could change with work on the training ground....He needs to find a defensive edge Imo and despite the kind referrals to blocking the lanes and positional play, a DM at times needs to let the opposition know he is there, they need to have trepidation when they come near, they need robust disruption qualities, to halt the runs.....Marshalling is required at times, because fools can rush in where angel fear to tread, but its a balance, if you let an oppostion player know you are contact shy, they will drive a coach and horses through it......Dougie and John imo, favour the attacking side of the game, John has just got his arse, and rarely dispossess an opponent, with out it.

I think stats are iffy, any time, its not always clear where and how they are derived.....these i will show you come from the Premeir League site, and I have just picked out a few, not to prove a point, just to get us thinking....These are on Dougie

• Tackle Success..48%
• Duels Won 234
• Duels Lost 249
• Aerial battles won 54
• Aerial Battles Lost 57

so his defensive bits are a bit 50/50......but I say again, he is not a bad player and I am not trying to promote that.....but that is stats of our current CDM above.

I would like to see a player alongside him with a more dedicated nose or instinct for defending first to protect the 2 centre backs and or support the full backs when required......a bit like a more modern version of Kevin Richardson, Andy Townsend or Stan

Not a reckless clogger, ....I don't suppose many seen Alex Cropley or Sid Cowans, now they could put a ball on a sixpence and tackle and come out with the ball.

As you say 2nd best player, thats as daft as saying he is rubbish.....In 19 games he has not won one "man of the match"  this season , got one vote in a hard fought away win yesterday froom 225 voters....that does not suggest a second best player to me.......What it does suggest is a very good prospect with much work to do to become a quality CDM....and at 22, I would not want to see him leave.

Dougie is not a bad player....but it needs perspective, in his evaluation.

[DCJonah]

Doesn't look the same player that finished last season.

[villalad21]

Still not a dm for me 

 

[MotoMkali]

Not as bad as people were saying. When Mcginn and Barkley play like that we can't advance from the back so we have to play hoofball. Personally I think Luiz should be playing those long balls not mings if we have to do it. But we need to actually play more than 1 man in midfield.

[Demitri_C]

I dont think luiz was that bd either. Barkley kept losing the ball and luiz was having to clean it up.

Stilk think luiz is going tk be a excellent player for us. I dont mond if he has a lil blip as then the chances of city coming in for him in the summer are low

[villalad21]

42 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont think luiz was that bd either. Barkley kept losing the ball and luiz was having to clean it up.

Stilk think luiz is going tk be a excellent player for us. I dont mond if he has a lil blip as then the chances of city coming in for him in the summer are low

Hopefully Luiz eventually moves into the 8 role and we sign a Ndidi type.

[Demitri_C]

33 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Hopefully Luiz eventually moves into the 8 role and we sign a Ndidi type.

You know a ndidi type is exactly what we need . Thats what i was hoping we was gettin with nakamba. But sadly he is nowhere near that sort of player.

Id consider off loading nakamaba in the summer

[Zatman]

Except Luiz poorest game of the season was when he played No. 8 vs Newcastle 

[KentVillan]

One frustration I have is that Dougie is often in space and ignored. Anyone else noticed this? I'd understand if it were someone like Nakamba who is a poor passer, but Dougie is the kind of player who can pick out a pass or a cross.

[TRO]

On 31/01/2021 at 11:34, KentVillan said:

How can you watch football and not rate Douglas Luiz, I don’t get it.

Also the people who want their defensive mid to be like Roy Keane... football isn’t refereed like that anymore. There’s no point having a DM who just puts in big tackles, because you can’t kick a team off the park.

What Douglas does really well is keep possession and get the ball to players in attacking positions. He makes it look simple, which is maybe why he doesn’t get much credit for it, but he’s a solid 8/10 performer most games IMO.

Sad thing is some of you will only realise this when he gets injured or sold to a Champions League side.

That statement is just wide of the mark, sorry.

Did you watch the game last night, Soucek won the ball without too much difficulty, dispatched it and they scored.....Its called being assertive.

Every team in this division has a player like that, the better teams being more noticeable and more rounded.....Ndidi, Matic, McTominay, Henderson, Fabinho, Rodri, Romeu, Phillips, i could go on.....I think you see the game differently.

I don't doubt your claims, he is neat and tidy, but he loses the ball fairly easy in one on one's and Rarely wins the ball....He is passive, its not enough in certain games.....sure the ones where they let you play ( to a degree) he gets away with it......but its not just him, with out the "Arse" what does he do lately......He could have gone out to Lingard, when he scored ,but he just left him and drifted in to the middle of the goal area.....Lingard just left free, no challenge, no nothing.

Tell me the memorable moments our 2 CDM's had in a game we lost 1-3 at home.....please explain.

[MrBlack]

2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

One frustration I have is that Dougie is often in space and ignored. Anyone else noticed this? I'd understand if it were someone like Nakamba who is a poor passer, but Dougie is the kind of player who can pick out a pass or a cross.

That struck me last night,  but can't say I've noticed it before.  I was thinking how frustrated I would be as a player with his ability just being ignored when a simple ball to me is on,  and then a pass is played either back to the back 4 or gk, or aimlessly down the channel to noone. I think that yesterday was a particularly bad example, but definitely going to keep an eye on it next time. 

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That statement is just wide of the mark, sorry.

Did you watch the game last night, Soucek won the ball without too much difficulty, dispatched it and they scored.....Its called being assertive.

Every team in this division has a player like that, the better teams being more noticeable and more rounded.....Ndidi, Matic, McTominay, Henderson, Fabinho, Rodri, Romeu, Phillips, i could go on.....I think you see the game differently.

I don't doubt your claims, he is neat and tidy, but he loses the ball fairly easy in one on one's and Rarely wins the ball....He is passive, its not enough in certain games.....sure the ones where they let you play ( to a degree) he gets away with it......but its not just him, with out the "Arse" what does he do lately......He could have gone out to Lingard, when he scored ,but he just left him and drifted in to the middle of the goal area.....Lingard just left free, no challenge, no nothing.

Tell me the memorable moments our 2 CDM's had in a game we lost 1-3 at home.....please explain.

It doesn't make sense to use last night's game as an indicator of his or McGinn's average form level. There's the possibility of COVID after-effects, the sheer number of games lately, and the lack of help coming from Barkley. 

You talked of stats not painting the whole picture with players before and one thing that Luiz does that often goes unnoticed and isn't picked up by stats, is his ability to pressure players into poor touches or rushed passes. He is very good positionally and does this many times per game and we often retrieve possession from it. 

[KentVillan]

42 minutes ago, TRO said:

That statement is just wide of the mark, sorry.

Did you watch the game last night, Soucek won the ball without too much difficulty, dispatched it and they scored.....Its called being assertive.

Every team in this division has a player like that, the better teams being more noticeable and more rounded.....Ndidi, Matic, McTominay, Henderson, Fabinho, Rodri, Romeu, Phillips, i could go on.....I think you see the game differently.

I don't doubt your claims, he is neat and tidy, but he loses the ball fairly easy in one on one's and Rarely wins the ball....He is passive, its not enough in certain games.....sure the ones where they let you play ( to a degree) he gets away with it......but its not just him, with out the "Arse" what does he do lately......He could have gone out to Lingard, when he scored ,but he just left him and drifted in to the middle of the goal area.....Lingard just left free, no challenge, no nothing.

Tell me the memorable moments our 2 CDM's had in a game we lost 1-3 at home.....please explain.

What you've written is a really good explanation of why we need to replace Nakamba. I don't really understand why you think Douglas is the problem.

[Zatman]

12 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

What you've written is a really good explanation of why we need to replace Nakamba. I don't really understand why you think Douglas is the problem.

Because he is not a 6 foot 5 hoofball player . Apparently every team needs one

[AVTuco]

To me, he's been too invisible and thereby ineffective lately. Our midfield is too lightweight.