Dean Smith

[Dave-R]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I think its a really good post Brian and very interesting question.

As you know, I want Dean to succeed, he is the epitome of harmony, safe pair of hands, a manager with a real passion for the club....We have progressed under his stewardship and a number of indivudual players have too.

You might know, I have doubts about the steel in the side, something Dean has never struck me, to be that important, having said that I like his style of play in general....The thing that troubles me is, despite a claim to highlight progress, we are a bit of a win one, lose one team, on the whole.

I don't feel a sense of urgency to find consistency.....I sometimes find myself having doubt about the drive and will to win, of the team....In some games I see it and in others I don't......I am not sure if we see win one, lose one as ok...or thats just the way it is....thats not drive.

All the successful managers of the past are restless for perfection they strive and it shows in their Demeanor....I am not saying Dean is not driven or wants what we want, but I don't always see it....It's great to see composure and a calm head, but a little bit of passion and losing it, is also a trait of a driven manager.....Dean Has always claimed the team mirrors the manager, I ask the question, is Dean a win one lose one sort of character?

I don't subscribe to the theory, that Saturday, was just one of those games... in our case....it happened in sorts against Burnley, where they formed a queue at the back post and bullied us, West Brom did it in the play offs and Crystal Palace did it in May 2021 with a 3-2 win. sure the odd occasion, it happens to all teams, but we have a bit of a trait of it.

Some folk say we have a soft underbelly.....I say at times, other times we can show some grit...but its not consistent.

I think we have the makings of a very good team, but I still feel a lack of urgency or intensity in Midfield ( McGinn aside) I don't see a tenacious soul tearing it up like a Conor Gallagher does, and he is not amongst the best in the league, he too is still learning his trade, but he gives you energy.....I want to see a bit more of that from our guys.

I tend to feel like you, Wes Edens is the one who will rest at nothing for success, and from what I gather, he gave a look of thunder to Christian Purslow on Saturday after the game.....They have spent some serious wedge, unprecedented as far as I can remember.

I think some valid points have been made on both sides of the Dean Smith analytics......I desperately want him to succeed, but I can also see some of what the doubters can too, while accepting he has done a sound job to date.

I think it might be a good time for Dean to do a self analysis on himself, and his staff and see where a bit of additional ingredient can be added.

But, good question Bri.....it will be interesting to see,what others say.

 

 

I just think we're returning to the days of a fanbase automatically expecting things to happen straight of the bat, that bad results shouldn't and can't happen and being too impatient with those in charge. As a fan base the worst thing we could start expecting is self entitlement, there is only one road that leads down and that disappointment. 

This was a long term plan put in place by the Owners and fans just have to realise that rushing it could have real bad consequences. To be fair it Smith was sacked who out there would we get in to do a better job, there really is no guarantee anyone could do better that Dean is there?

Things will just have to take shape at there own speed and patients in the whole scheme and those in ccharge the fans must have. Its pointless going from a fan base who decide to stand by Smith to all of a sudden go against him for a hiccup like the ones against wolves, to put it bluntly there is going to be many more of those along the way.

Every season we remain a Premier league club under the control of our Owners we do become better. We also have to trust the process and so long as Smith is in charge then they must have a fair bit of faith in him to continue on the work. I'm pretty sure TRO that our Owners would indeed pull the trigger I they saw an opportunity to get someone in his place if they thought without a doubt he could do better that Smith. I'm also pretty sure the red button would be pushed on Smith if the Owners felt like he were going to take Villa off the cliff nose dive style. 

For me it's a season that got put out of our control early by Injurys, we've still not been at full power and the stars we have had play for us have not played to there full potentially yet I think. I'm still waiting for our team to play full strength with full ability and looking like a full sharp edge of the sword. We all knew in the summer bringing another five or so players would take us back abit and it has. Systems have also changed and so does the way in how players played last season to how they're playing now, much has changed..

Again trust the process, trust that we will have as much downs changing things this season at top flight level as we will have ups and every fan should be fine. I must be honest that I'm just most grateful that we're a Premier outfit still again and realise we're a long way off from being anything other than that in this league. It's all going to take time and adding stress as a fan base to players and the staff maybe isnt the way to go. For the time being so long as we don't get relegated I am happy and patient with Smith and everyone like the Owners or players and happy for new things to be tried to find a winning process for a while.

Your idea though of a self analysis may be a good idea TRO, it doesn't hurt to pull yourself back and see where your going wrong at all does it?? Having two Coaches like Smith and JT seemed to be something good for Villa, maybe Smith needs a different head next to him seeing things he himself doesn't see. Usually it doesn't hurt having more minds, more eyes and different thought processes working out problems, think of it like different angled CCTV cameras all positioned differently, those cameras all see different images and situations from different angles but together they all start forming a singular story, Smith may need this to make him be more efficient.

[OutByEaster?]

31 minutes ago, Risso said:

We’ll be firmly mired in lower mid table.

This is a key for me, it's clear from the way you've described it, that for you lower mid table is not just below expectation, it's significantly below expectation and needs to be addressed sharply.

I'd say our natural position in this table as a squad is probably 10th or 11th, more than a couple of positions above that and we're doing pretty well, more than a couple below that and we're doing pretty poorly - so for me 9th-13th is a perfectly acceptable place for the squad to be - it's an area where there doesn't need to be any action, one that's okay for where we are in our journey, one where the manager is doing okay. Higher than 9th and the manager is doing well, higher than 8th he's doing very well and higher than that, he's a genius with this squad. 

Lower mid table, i'd guess at about 12th-15th - that's where I'd think of as lower mid table - the top end of that, is maybe one position below par in my opinion, it's okay, it's not great, but it's not bad, 13th isn't bad for me either, it's not where I'd hope to be but it's acceptable, we've changed a lot of stuff for this season and to an extent we're a team in transition - if we finished 13th I'd be slightly disappointed, but it wouldn't by any means be a disaster.

14th and 15th would be disappointing and perhaps more than that, depending on how far from the drop zone those positions end up being - and if we do end up getting close to the bottom three, or drop into it, then I'd expect there to be some pressure on Dean Smith - so would he, there should be.

For me, being in the top end of lower mid table isn't anything like mired, it's Man Utd being worried about being in 4th, it's Spurs worried about not being the Champions league, there's a false expectation that their ambitions are actually their expectations.The bottom end of the lower mid table would be a disappointment, because I think we can have an expectation to be in the top dozen and ambitions to be in the top ten.

I don't think we should be looking for the managers head unless we find ourselves in the bottom four in five or six games time, or unless there's a drop off in performance. We were 11 minutes away from being 9th a few days ago, it was a horrible 11 minutes and it's left some scars, but we're not bleeding to death. I think if there are people out there who think we should be looking at finishing sixth, it's not the manager that's the problem. It'd be lovely if we did, but it'd be a hell of an achievement.

 

 

[Laughable Chimp]

22 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

This is a key for me, it's clear from the way you've described it, that for you lower mid table is not just below expectation, it's significantly below expectation and needs to be addressed sharply.

I'd say our natural position in this table as a squad is probably 10th or 11th, more than a couple of positions above that and we're doing pretty well, more than a couple below that and we're doing pretty poorly - so for me 9th-13th is a perfectly acceptable place for the squad to be - it's an area where there doesn't need to be any action, one that's okay for where we are in our journey, one where the manager is doing okay. Higher than 9th and the manager is doing well, higher than 8th he's doing very well and higher than that, he's a genius with this squad. 

Lower mid table, i'd guess at about 12th-15th - that's where I'd think of as lower mid table - the top end of that, is maybe one position below par in my opinion, it's okay, it's not great, but it's not bad, 13th isn't bad for me either, it's not where I'd hope to be but it's acceptable, we've changed a lot of stuff for this season and to an extent we're a team in transition - if we finished 13th I'd be slightly disappointed, but it wouldn't by any means be a disaster.

14th and 15th would be disappointing and perhaps more than that, depending on how far from the drop zone those positions end up being - and if we do end up getting close to the bottom three, or drop into it, then I'd expect there to be some pressure on Dean Smith - so would he, there should be.

For me, being in the top end of lower mid table isn't anything like mired, it's Man Utd being worried about being in 4th, it's Spurs worried about not being the Champions league, there's a false expectation that their ambitions are actually their expectations.The bottom end of the lower mid table would be a disappointment, because I think we can have an expectation to be in the top dozen and ambitions to be in the top ten.

I don't think we should be looking for the managers head unless we find ourselves in the bottom four in five or six games time, or unless there's a drop off in performance. We were 11 minutes away from being 9th a few days ago, it was a horrible 11 minutes and it's left some scars, but we're not bleeding to death. I think if there are people out there who think we should be looking at finishing sixth, it's not the manager that's the problem. It'd be lovely if we did, but it'd be a hell of an achievement.

 

 

I agree that our natural position in the table is probably around 10th, but I don't think 12th or 13th are necessarily perfectly acceptable positions to be in. 

Last season, despite us finishing 11th, there was a massive gap in points between us and 12th. Yet only 6 points separated 12th and 17th. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think squad quality wise, we were closer to the higher end of the table than the bottom and despite the loss of Grealish, have theoretically recruited very well.

I believe we're on the same levels as the Evertons, West Hams, Wolves, Arsenals, etc. All teams that were expected to compete for the rest of the top 10 positions. I can accept keeping pace with these teams even if we end up below all of them. But falling comfortably back into that 12th-17th place rabble points wise would be a pretty signficant step backwards to where we were last season, even if its technically only "lower mid-table".

Basically, I'm fine with lower mid-table so long as we're not far away from the top 10.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[foreveryoung]

28 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I agree that our natural position in the table is probably around 10th, but I don't think 12th or 13th are necessarily perfectly acceptable positions to be in. 

Last season, despite us finishing 11th, there was a massive gap in points between us and 12th. Yet only 6 points separated 12th and 17th. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think squad quality wise, we were closer to the higher end of the table than the bottom and despite the loss of Grealish, have theoretically recruited very well.

I believe we're on the same levels as the Evertons, West Hams, Wolves, Arsenals, etc. All teams that were expected to compete for the rest of the top 10 positions. I can accept keeping pace with these teams even if we end up below all of them. But falling comfortably back into that 12th-17th place rabble points wise would be a pretty signficant step backwards to where we were last season, even if its technically only "lower mid-table".

Basically, I'm fine with lower mid-table so long as we're not far away from the top 10.

I think your bang on here and it's where I am. I still believe European football is the owners/Purslow's expectation, but no one is saying he will be sacked if we don't get that place this season. As you say as long as we can keep up with the Evertons, West hams, Arsenals (if they have a turn of form) we should be fine.

Edited October 20, 2021 by foreveryoung

[carlitobrigante]

Personally i think Smith is doing a great job. Except for the terrible run before the first covid lockdown I haven't doubted him at all

The demand for results is ridiculous. This season we are adapting to a whole new way of playing, have lost our Talisman, are trying to bed multiple new signings and blood new players and field some youngsters, yet some seem disappointed despite all this with being a mid table side

We are still way ahead of schedule. If we can get Bailey and Sanson fit and firing, get our brilliant youngsters some experience, and finish mid table I will be a very happy man.

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

The reality of Dean Smith's management is very different from the perception some will insist on every time we lose a game.

If it's culture you want, there couldn't be a more perfect manager...

 

 

 

I didn't say he wasn't cultured.

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

"The demand for results is ridiculous". Are you even a fan? It's a results business mate. There is no bedding in of new players and no new way of playing. This is not a experimental season where we can afford to field some youngsters either. We need to go for it and try our best to finish higher than last season.  European football is ambitious agreed, but I'm sure it's our aim this season.

I'm sure the club have a target, every big organisation does, its management tool.....If you set out on a trip, you have a destination, otherwise you would never know if if got there.

Our club, will have a target for this season, they might not disclose it, but they will have one.

Managers are usually managed by KPI'S ( Key performance indicators) that are referred to, usually on appraisals....I would be surprised if Dean is not subjected to them.....and subsequently he will use them in appraising his staff.

Edited October 20, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

I thought Dean Smith showed his class once again....in defending a fellow manager on national TV with his comments.......from unnecessary abuse, from a section of Newky fans.

Top Man Dean.

[Tomaszk]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I didn't say he wasn't cultured.

Who said you did?

[briny_ear]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I thought Dean Smith showed his class once again....in defending a fellow manager on national TV with his comments.......from unnecessary abuse, from a section of Newky fans.

Top Man Dean.

I missed that. Who did he defend and what did he defend them against?

[Zatman]

6 hours ago, briny_ear said:

I missed that. Who did he defend and what did he defend them against?

Its obviously Bruce, not sure what the comments were but not surprised

[Vive_La_Villa]

22 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

it really surprised you?

It doesn’t surprise me just disappoints me. I’m all for constructive criticism but it surely must be balanced. 

There’s a lot of posters that feel you can’t criticise Smith or the team without people coming to his defence. That’s just not true, those defending him in most cases are just adding balance to a purely one sided negative argument.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[lexicon]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Of course there is. 

And why can't we? Whats the impending disaster that you and others think is happening?

Agree 100% - we have to do what's best for the long term, after all, as this is a project designed to shape the club for years to come. If it takes us another year without Europe but we've successfully developed a raft of talented youngsters, then we'll be in a much stronger position down the line.

NSWE aren't just thinking about the next game or even season, it's a bigger picture than that. 

[Wainy316]

Looks like tomorrow will be his first game this season with a full strength side.  I do not want to see 5-3-2.

[Peter Griffin]

Just now, Wainy316 said:

Looks like tomorrow will be his first game this season with a full strength side.  I do not want to see 5-3-2.

You may be better not watching it so 

[Woody1000]

In an ideal scenario, I’d rather not see us playing 3-5-2/5-3-2 tomorrow but the main thing for me is Dean getting a performance from the boys. I don’t think he’s got a fully fit squad to start from, but hopefully Bailey and Traoré will play some part.

[Mic09]

Dean has to get some more points on the board.

I never expected Europe this year (although that would be a great achievement) but in order for us to get another Bailey or 2 next year, we need to push on and show we are competetive. 

This season is objectively not great for Smith. But, minor slip ups (brentford, watford, wolves) need to be eradicated quickly, and I see no reason to question Smith if he fixes these in the next 2 months. 

[foreveryoung]

Signing Bailey to replace Grealish does not mean we are in transition. Yes we have Buendia and Ing's, but I hardly think we need a transition period to bed them in. This is down to the manager to sort the system a.s.a.p. If anything, injuries to Bailey is the only excuse at the moment. If bringing in a few of the youth is going to drop us a few places at the end of the season, I doubt this is a good idea, although it's down to Smith to manage this.

[Vive_La_Villa]

36 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Signing Bailey to replace Grealish does not mean we are in transition. Yes we have Buendia and Ing's, but I hardly think we need a transition period to bed them in. This is down to the manager to sort the system a.s.a.p. If anything, injuries to Bailey is the only excuse at the moment. If bringing in a few of the youth is going to drop us a few places at the end of the season, I doubt this is a good idea, although it's down to Smith to manage this.

Who said we’re in transition? We’ve just had several changes which may have impacted the start of our season. It’s hardly transition.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[villa4europe]

6 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

a valid opinion, I disagree.

I think that once we work out the system thats fits the players we have rather than picking a formation and trying to accomodate signings you will see better results.

A team is as good as the sum of its parts, a good manager makes it better and a poor manager makes it worse. Dean is a very good coach, not sure where he is as a manager.

thats partly why im not chomping at the bit to bash him, i think we have maybe the 9th best squad in the league depending on where i then put everton and wolves who i think have a weaker squad overall but can still put out a strong 11 so 9th to 11th is naturally where we should kind of be, i don't think smith underperforms or overperforms based on the 25 players that he has

the disappointment does then come when sheffield utd and leeds finish above us or brentford and brighton are above us, thats when i agree thats good management, bielsa has them overperforming (for seemingly 1 season only)

if we got 7th i would consider that overperforming but west ham did it so you can see that its possible

Edited October 21, 2021 by villa4europe