Dean Smith

[Tomaszk]

1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said:

No not like last season, we collapsed in the 2nd half of the season and didn't look like competing for Europe.

Got it.

So the 55 points must be spread across the season so we're floating around 6-9th?

No strong runs of form. But also, only lose points when we're getting totally outplayed. But not playing 'poorly'.

Add it to the list @DCJonah

 

1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said:

Not sure what the point about Everton and Leeds is about

They should sell their players and sign better cheaper ones.

[Indigo]

31 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

We need to be one of those midtable teams that look like we are about to break into the top 7 and demonstrate the consistency of play to finish in the top half

To be fair, if we're to call this scenario finishing 8th then I don't think Arsenal nor Everton fans would agree that their sides displayed particularly consistent traits at all, and their records in those seasons speak to this also. In fact our points tally from last season would have us finishing as high as that and in one case even higher in the last 4/5 seasons.

[Peter Griffin]

Just now, Indigo said:

To be fair, if we're to call this scenario finishing 8th then I don't think Arsenal nor Everton fans would agree that their sides displayed particularly consistent traits at all, and their records in those seasons speak to this also. In fact our points tally from last season would have us finishing as high as that and in one case even higher in the last 4/5 seasons.

Yeah, by consistency I agree that it is the very consistent teams that will finish top 2 or 3 or maybe 4. Obviously the likes of Norwich or consistent from a different perspective. But we are clearly a long way from there. Yes, I am now adding a caveat to my consistency mantra but I just think we are not consistent enough for a good effort at Europa and a top half finish. We will have bad days but just not as frequently as we do now

[foreveryoung]

Some are saying you can't coach mentality, but I will be shocked if we see a collapse like the one against Wolves again this season. I would expect Smith and the coaching staff to drill it into them, that this can't happen again.

[Tomaszk]

3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Some are saying you can't coach mentality, but I will be shocked if we see a collapse like the one against Wolves again this season. I would expect Smith and the coaching staff to drill it into them, that this can't happen again.

Weird he didn't coach it into them after we lost at Palace from two up. Maybe he just didn't think of it.

Ah well. Once he's coached them to not lose from 2-0 up we'll be safe from defeat as soon as we can get that second. 

Exciting stuff.

[QldVilla]

3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Weird he didn't coach it into them after we lost at Palace from two up. Maybe he just didn't think of it.

Ah well. Once he's coached them to not lose from 2-0 up we'll be safe from defeat as soon as we can get that second. 

Exciting stuff.

There are always reasons why these performances occur, whether physical, mental or both. You could see it happen in a side with little experience at PL level, but that isn’t the case anymore, as a majority of the players have 60+ games under their belt.

People can read the tea leaves as much as they want, but unless your in the room it’s hard to diagnose.

[foreveryoung]

3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Weird he didn't coach it into them after we lost at Palace from two up. Maybe he just didn't think of it.

Ah well. Once he's coached them to not lose from 2-0 up we'll be safe from defeat as soon as we can get that second. 

Exciting stuff.

Why you being so unreasonable tonight?

I obviously mean the 10 minute 3 goal collapse. He would have gone over that game pointing out the faults to make sure this never happens again. Yes anyone can lose from 2-0 up, but hopefully not too many times within the last 10 minutes.

[Vive_La_Villa]

23 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Weird he didn't coach it into them after we lost at Palace from two up. Maybe he just didn't think of it.

Ah well. Once he's coached them to not lose from 2-0 up we'll be safe from defeat as soon as we can get that second. 

Exciting stuff.

We were 2-1 up with 60 minutes to go.  Just saying. 

[tomav84]

4 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Oh that's how it works. 

Demand change. God we've got some entitled fans in our mix. I'm so glad they're the minority  

maybe we should be more like arsenal, calling for the manager's head at the first opportunity on youtube

this 'demanding change' seems to have worked well for them the last few years....

[Tomaszk]

31 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

There are always reasons why these performances occur, whether physical, mental or both. You could see it happen in a side with little experience at PL level, but that isn’t the case anymore, as a majority of the players have 60+ games under their belt.

People can read the tea leaves as much as they want, but unless your in the room it’s hard to diagnose.

Absolutely. Great post.

Simplifying matters like this down to the manager should coach the team to not blow up mentally is hogwash.

[Dave-R]

I think the fact that teams who will finish the league at the top regular will sometimes go and pull stinkers like the one we had against Wolves, it does happen at the top league in the entire sport.

Not making excuses for the players or for those in charge of them but someone has to lose a game of football if there is no draw.

Smith has to start thinking about points, the points should come first and foremost. Even beyond the need to keep outscored the opponent even when we've outscored the opponent. 

Collectively it was a cock up and collectively it must be put right.

We have enough quality at this level to not do these stinker games but somewhere along the line the stinkers always happen due to lapses in concentration. Its then how the team responds afterwards that will show the teams maturity, respond wonderfully and all of a sudden a run could be put together, respond awfully and we will be in tons of trouble. The whole team and staff now have to prepare for the next battle and the wolves match somehow has to be put behind them. The one thing I think they have to be careful about isn't repeating there weaknesses and what happen go on and make it a strength.

 

[DCJonah]

12 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Got it.

So the 55 points must be spread across the season so we're floating around 6-9th?

No strong runs of form. But also, only lose points when we're getting totally outplayed. But not playing 'poorly'.

Add it to the list @DCJonah

 

They should sell their players and sign better cheaper ones.

I can't keep up.

 

[TomC]

10 hours ago, Dave-R said:

I think the fact that teams who will finish the league at the top regular will sometimes go and pull stinkers like the one we had against Wolves, it does happen at the top league in the entire sport.

Villa 7 Liverpool 2!!! 

[TRO]

17 hours ago, villabromsgrove said:

I've just had a three way call with two of my sons and I was impressed by some of the chat about where Villa currently are.

Whatever our individual feelings are about how Villa and Smith are performing, we've been discussing the fact that we (the supporters) aren't the people that matter.

NSWE took over Villa with a business plan for where they wanted to take AVFC. Look at the current stats .... Are they impressed with progress right now?

Ignore the stats of the last three years in terms of the future (tomorrow onwards). Smith has done well to get us to where we are, but are there concrete signs that this season's targets are going to be met?

Edens and Sawiris are not prepared to stand still. It isn't in their business plan.

Can anyone tell me what Smith's formation and plan is going forward? How will we be playing next week, next month, after Christmas?

We can hope Dean comes up with the right answers, but does anyone really believe that we will become a consistent team this season? We can speculate but we just don't know, will our owners settle for the uncertainty?

I mentioned Edens before Sawiris earlier and I did this because of Edens incisive and ruthless joint owner style with the Bucks. NSWE have a plan and it's not about love, loyalty and cosiness. It's about progress.

If the answer up until now has been only about buying a couple of better players each transfer window, then do we think they will now ignore the ultimate potential of the man in charge of the team?

I've asked a number of questions after a good long chat with my sons, I would love to hear what you guys think.

I think its a really good post Brian and very interesting question.

As you know, I want Dean to succeed, he is the epitome of harmony, safe pair of hands, a manager with a real passion for the club....We have progressed under his stewardship and a number of indivudual players have too.

You might know, I have doubts about the steel in the side, something Dean has never struck me, to be that important, having said that I like his style of play in general....The thing that troubles me is, despite a claim to highlight progress, we are a bit of a win one, lose one team, on the whole.

I don't feel a sense of urgency to find consistency.....I sometimes find myself having doubt about the drive and will to win, of the team....In some games I see it and in others I don't......I am not sure if we see win one, lose one as ok...or thats just the way it is....thats not drive.

All the successful managers of the past are restless for perfection they strive and it shows in their Demeanor....I am not saying Dean is not driven or wants what we want, but I don't always see it....It's great to see composure and a calm head, but a little bit of passion and losing it, is also a trait of a driven manager.....Dean Has always claimed the team mirrors the manager, I ask the question, is Dean a win one lose one sort of character?

I don't subscribe to the theory, that Saturday, was just one of those games... in our case....it happened in sorts against Burnley, where they formed a queue at the back post and bullied us, West Brom did it in the play offs and Crystal Palace did it in May 2021 with a 3-2 win. sure the odd occasion, it happens to all teams, but we have a bit of a trait of it.

Some folk say we have a soft underbelly.....I say at times, other times we can show some grit...but its not consistent.

I think we have the makings of a very good team, but I still feel a lack of urgency or intensity in Midfield ( McGinn aside) I don't see a tenacious soul tearing it up like a Conor Gallagher does, and he is not amongst the best in the league, he too is still learning his trade, but he gives you energy.....I want to see a bit more of that from our guys.

I tend to feel like you, Wes Edens is the one who will rest at nothing for success, and from what I gather, he gave a look of thunder to Christian Purslow on Saturday after the game.....They have spent some serious wedge, unprecedented as far as I can remember.

I think some valid points have been made on both sides of the Dean Smith analytics......I desperately want him to succeed, but I can also see some of what the doubters can too, while accepting he has done a sound job to date.

I think it might be a good time for Dean to do a self analysis on himself, and his staff and see where a bit of additional ingredient can be added.

But, good question Bri.....it will be interesting to see,what others say.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by TRO

[MrBlack]

14 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Some are saying you can't coach mentality, but I will be shocked if we see a collapse like the one against Wolves again this season. I would expect Smith and the coaching staff to drill it into them, that this can't happen again.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure the insta post from mings saying we must learn from this and not let it happen again is exactly what he said after the last time we capitulated.  Conceding a last minute goal can always happen, but agree that if we lose a 2 goal lead like this again I'd be incredibly annoyed.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Some are saying you can't coach mentality, but I will be shocked if we see a collapse like the one against Wolves again this season. I would expect Smith and the coaching staff to drill it into them, that this can't happen again.

you can't in the main, it comes from the culture of your environment, it comes from standards, it comes from what is accpeted and what isn't, its a mood that is ubiquitous and felt almost unconciously.

Its setting the tone.

[foreveryoung]

Actually forgot Edens and Purslow was there. Smith surely would not have been happy to lose in such a way with the big boys there. Im expecting a big improvement at Arsenal, if not I'm sure people willl be questioning yet again Smith's abilities.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Agreed. I'm pretty sure the insta post from mings saying we must learn from this and not let it happen again is exactly what he said after the last time we capitulated.  Conceding a last minute goal can always happen, but agree that if we lose a 2 goal lead like this again I'd be incredibly annoyed.

but the issue is 3 goals....2 would have been enough to get us all miffed, but it was 3.....why wasn't Targett in a juxtaposition in the wall, his arm would then have been covered by another torso....it was sloppy and we lost composure.

The "We will learn from this".....is a cop out line pedalled by anybody, who just wants the flak to go away.....He perhaps he couldn't say anything else, but we can all see through it.

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

you can't in the main, it comes from the culture of your environment, it comes from standards, it comes from what is accpeted and what isn't, its a mood that is ubiquitous and felt almost unconciously.

Its setting the tone.

You can establish a culture that works, you can set standards that need to be met, and define what is acceptable and is not. All those things can come through coaching. 

I'm not sure we can coach mentality still, but we can instill confidence and expect not to see a repeat of losing from 2-0 up against a side that up to that point had offered very little.

I'm optimistic for the season still... we'll have our first choice wingers back soon that will give us the boost we need. When they're starting  and the starters against Wolves are the ones coming on instead, we'll be in a much better place.

The subs Smith made were largely forced on him,  but given Nakamba's form hasn't been terrible, and Ramsey had only had one really bad game before wolves, amongst a run of good games, you'd still expect us to hold on. I hope it was a truly freak occurrence,  and we won't see it happen again, at least this season.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Actually forgot Edens and Purslow was there. Smith surely would not have been happy to lose in such a way with the big boys there. Im expecting a big improvement at Arsenal, if not I'm sure people willl be questioning yet again Smith's abilities.

Dean Smiths abilities will never be questioned on one game.....patterns and trends will though.