Dean Smith

[PussEKatt]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Because the situation is entirely different. If you think that the squad we have today is premier league standard, then that's up to you. I don't think it is and I don't blame Smith entirely for where we are, with all the context that we have from this season to go on - near total rebuild, huge influx of players that we had to take punts on, season-ending injuries to first choice keeper and striker etc. 

You forgot to mention our Loss/Win ratio

You forgot to mention our goals For/Against ratio

You forgot to mention our points per game ratio

Yes,lets keep Smith,it certainly looks like he is one of a kind in the PL.

[tom_avfc]

13 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

The point I am trying to make is that under Poch.This team,these players would not be in the relegation zone.Ok we would not be challenging for a top 4 finish,but much more importantly,we would not be in a relegation battle.In other words a manager who is more/better experianced would get more out of this squad.

In which case I completely disagree. It would take a miracle worker to keep a team in the Premier League which has had to start Nyland, Hause, Taylor, Hourihane, Nakamba, Davis on numerous occasions.

The squad is poor for the level we're at. Bournemouth, Watford and West Ham have far superior squads to us and sit very few points ahead of us. 

[Davkaus]

I don't think this squad is good enough to stay up, but I also don't think he should be here next season. Over a year and a half, we've not seen anything like a coherent way of playing.

I have absolutely no faith he'd get us back up without "Give it to Jack and Tammy" as a strategy.

[AvfcRigo82]

48 minutes ago, lexicon said:

We've changed owners and staff twice in the last few years - it's clearly not the same. Lerner had checked out, Xia was a fraud

Lerner - Paul Faulkner & Tom Fox.

Xia - Keith Wyness.

NasWes - Purslow.

Focusing on Purslow.. the man responsible for Chelsea's ground breaking sponsorship deal during his time there... so big that it needed to go to a court case for approval.

Yet... who is our new sponsorship? Cazoo!! A company that is just starting out (same owner/founder as Zoopla) and what's interesting is that Cazoo have just received significant financial investment to get going as a business.

Hardly a ground breaking deal where the sponsor will gain more from the deal than the club will.

Again, Dean Smith isn't the only thing wrong with Aston Villa at the minute!

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by AvfcRigo82

[lexicon]

2 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

This is a valid point, but its not really anything to do with the original point you made which is the one I was arguing against.

Look, you think that Smith can't do better with the cards he has. That's fair, I disagree but I can't definitively prove you wrong here just as you can't definitively prove me wrong. This however is the only solid basis of your and the pro-Smith argument. Its why this one point has been repeatedly insisted again and again ad nauseaum in this thread. Pretty much every pro-smith claim in this thread goes back to this one claim that cannot be definitively proven wrong.

The other stuff about how we shouldn't sack Smith because of "stability" or anything similar however is just bollocks. Its not for this reason why you think we should stick with Smith. If you think Smith should've done better, you wouldn't be arguing that we should stick with Smith because we need more "stability". The point I'm making is that I don't think you and the pro-Smith arguers truly believe in this point. You believe in the point you stated above, not this one.

 

I get what you mean, and I'm not saying that I'm definitely right and you're wrong etc. - we both have different opinions on the matter and that's fine. 

I think the main arguments behind keeping Smith are: 

- He got us into the league in the first place, so he can win games with a comparatively good squad
- There are many factors outside his control that have had a large impact on our current position 
- There is stability that comes with keeping a manager, and when you sack him, you're rolling the dice again 

It all boils down to whether you think that the average manager that we could attract could have kept us up with all variables and circumstances being the same. I think that it'd be unlikely and I believe Smith can take us forward (as he did before) - throwing the dice is not a risk I'd be willing to take right now. 

[sharkyvilla]

Dean has still provided more happy memories as Villa fan for me than anyone in a long time.  In hindsight getting promoted when we did resulted in too big a challenge for Smith personally and the club.  We now have to shift focus as to how we get back up, I'm pretty sure even if we lose the likes of Grealish we can build a more balanced squad to get promoted again with Dean as manager.  If someone better is available then I'd be fine with changing things but as I'm not as deeply invested in the rest of the football world I'm not sure who that would be.  

Edited July 10, 2020 by sharkyvilla

[OxfordVillan]

There ought to be some sort of rule whereby you can’t call for the sacking of Dean Smith without a credible alternative that invites discussion/debate. All too easy to call for someone to lose a job they are passionate about, with absolutely no idea as to the replacement or direction of the club thereafter. 

[Mantis]

Still don't buy this argument that he's a good Championship manager. We looked absolutely awful last season when Grealish was out, and that was despite having both McGinn and Abraham in the team.

[OxfordVillan]

8 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I get what you mean, and I'm not saying that I'm definitely right and you're wrong etc. - we both have different opinions on the matter and that's fine. 

I think the main arguments behind keeping Smith are: 

- He got us into the league in the first place, so he can win games with a comparatively good squad
- There are many factors outside his control that have had a large impact on our current position 
- There is stability that comes with keeping a manager, and when you sack him, you're rolling the dice again 

It all boils down to whether you think that the average manager that we could attract could have kept us up with all variables and circumstances being the same. I think that it'd be unlikely and I believe Smith can take us forward (as he did before) - throwing the dice is not a risk I'd be willing to take right now. 

Don’t mention “stability”, some will want you shot for that! And that’s before we even mention “continuity”!

[DCJonah]

12 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

In which case I completely disagree. It would take a miracle worker to keep a team in the Premier League which has had to start Nyland, Hause, Taylor, Hourihane, Nakamba, Davis on numerous occasions.

The squad is poor for the level we're at. Bournemouth, Watford and West Ham have far superior squads to us and sit very few points ahead of us. 

I really don't get how this gets ignored so much.

Which of our relegation rivals had to play multiple games without a striker? Which of them lost their first two choice keepers to injuries? Our squad is so inferior to those around us. None of our wide players would start for any of them. None of our strikers would start for any of them. I highly doubt our full backs would start for any of them and neither would our keepers. Yet for some unknown reason, we should be doing better than them. 

I do find the idea that there should be more to come from this squad at this level an odd one. Its just totally based on nothing. 

[DCJonah]

Just now, Mantis said:

Still don't buy this argument that he's a good Championship manager. We looked absolutely awful last season when Grealish was out, and that was despite having both McGinn and Abraham in the team.

This is where it becomes an agenda. Ridiculous.

[PussEKatt]

10 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

In which case I completely disagree. It would take a miracle worker to keep a team in the Premier League which has had to start Nyland, Hause, Taylor, Hourihane, Nakamba, Davis on numerous occasions.

The squad is poor for the level we're at. Bournemouth, Watford and West Ham have far superior squads to us and sit very few points ahead of us. 

Here is the difference.

I read on "Newsnow"that O.G.Solskjaer gave his strikers a bollicking for not being clinical enough,this after a 0-3 win against us.

D.S was going on about the penalty.I realise the players heads dropped etc etc etc BUT,FFS even without the penalty we would have lost 0-2, but lets not say anything about the team/tactics/manager etc,lets blame the loss entirely on the penalty.

Big difference in managing teams right there?!    

[QldVilla]

3 hours ago, Eastie said:

Yes we had to rebuild in the summer but the team have not gelled and have actually got worse as the season progressed - we look a dreadful team in every area of the pitch - awful defence , weak midfield and shocking wingers and strikers - the player to really emerge with credit has been luiz but I doubt he will stay next Season 

The manager seems bereft tactically and out of his depth at this level - he is like a frightened rabbit on the touchline without a clue what to do 

 

I agree that Smith appears to have been naive in how he has approached the season, but when you weigh that the club wasn’t ready for the PL, lack of experience at PL level with the playing group, long term injuries to key players, it can’t be laid completely at the feet of Smith.

For me Heaton, McGinn and Wesley stay healthy and we’re clear of the relegation zone. That doesn’t take away from the issues with the squad, but on the weight of issues, Smith for mine deserves another season and the opportunity to correct some of the mistakes.

[AvfcRigo82]

12 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Still don't buy this argument that he's a good Championship manager. We looked absolutely awful last season when Grealish was out, and that was despite having both McGinn and Abraham in the team.

Ran out of likes today now.

But I agree and it was indeed the case.

[sharkyvilla]

10 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Still don't buy this argument that he's a good Championship manager. We looked absolutely awful last season when Grealish was out, and that was despite having both McGinn and Abraham in the team.

It wasn't just Grealish, it was when Tuanzebe came back too which meant we were better on the ball in attack and at the back, we were just better balanced.  Let's face it if the squad he inherited was decent he wouldn't have got the job because Bruce wouldn't have got sacked.  By the end of the season I thought Smith had turned us into the best team in the league.

[Zatman]

15 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Still don't buy this argument that he's a good Championship manager. We looked absolutely awful last season when Grealish was out, and that was despite having both McGinn and Abraham in the team.

If thats the case then Steve Bruce wouldnt be considered a good Championship manager either

[tom_avfc]

19 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

Here is the difference.

I read on "Newsnow"that O.G.Solskjaer gave his strikers a bollicking for not being clinical enough,this after a 0-3 win against us.

D.S was going on about the penalty.I realise the players heads dropped etc etc etc BUT,FFS even without the penalty we would have lost 0-2, but lets not say anything about the team/tactics/manager etc,lets blame the loss entirely on the penalty.

Big difference in managing teams right there?!    

I mean without the penalty nobody has any idea what happens. Goals change games of football. We were the better team up to the penalty and lost our way afterwards.

I don't for one second believe that Smith will not have spoken to the players about their response to going behind but its difficult especially in the circumstances.

Do I have an issue with Smith mentioning the penalty post match? Not at all - its the big turning point of the match and he will have been asked several questions specifically about it. 

I guess its easy to pick positive things out of a manager's post match interview when his team is doing well and easy to twist anything a manager says when his team is performing badly. 

[DaveAV1]

The problem is we didn’t earn the right as a club to play the game we wanted to. As far as I can tell the aim was to play attractive football on the pitch and off the pitch buy players that were value for money with a view to developing them in to top players, either for us or selling them on for a decent return. We haven’t managed to do either. 

Our approach should have been much more pragmatic. Buy/loan some experience, some players that you know will do a job. Perhaps not get fans excited but solid.
 

On the pitch we tried to play nice stuff, but forgot the basics like being solid at the back. Playing good football and winning matches when you’re in the bottom three and devoid of confidence is rarely possible. 
 

We didn’t accept that we’d been away and we needed to earn the right to play in the PL again. We had inexperience all over the club both on and off the pitch and we thought we could play the game how we wanted. Sorry but it doesn’t work like that, as we’re finding out  the hard way. 

[The Fun Factory]

Don't really want to pour oil onto the fire but Smith's win percentage for Villa has now dipped below 40%. I think we have lost more game than won under him now.

Edited July 10, 2020 by The Fun Factory

[sparrow1988]

1 minute ago, The Fun Factory said:

Don't really want to pour oil onto the fire but Smith's win percentage for Villa has now dipped below 40%. I think we have lost more game than won under him now.

Probably about the expected win ratio consdering we'd be expected to win most games in the Championship (he had a little over 2/3 of a season I think) and lose most games in the PL. If he had two seasons and finished 13th both seasons in the PL he'd probably have a lower win ratio than that.