lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I agree that this season is not entirely like the season we went down. There are however similarities. Without getting into the headless chicken discussion I totally agree you need talent but in response to your Norwich comment the point being what fans want ultimately is effort and fight for the shirt. A willingness to run through walls if you like. We haven't been seeing that this season. At least in large parts. Take Luiz last night, the youngest player in the team, a kid trying to gee up the rest of those around him who were all sulking. That should not be happening. With regards to the spine.....Grealish, McGinn, Mings, Hourihane, Ghazi etc.... The players that were instrumental in the promotion and the so called base of the rebuild. Now, what I was driving at is as much as we all talk about poor transfers, several of the senior players have also been very poor. IMO there is no real project or spine in this current format that cannot be ripped up and started again. So the whole "It's madness to rip up the entire project at this point." is a little redundant imo. Which is what I was initially commenting on. It is also quite possible that several of these amongst others will be off anyway. This in itself will leave us needing to make big changes to the squad again and another major overhaul. Nobody is saying there are not mitigating circumstances or that Smith is entirely to blame for this season but from what I see is that we lack as a team not only talent, but direction and leadership. That's the way I see it. I wish it wasn't and I had faith in Smith and his team to sort this mess out but I just don't anymore. I don't see the older players pulling together or indeed any sort of team spirit that gives me faith this will happen anytime soon either. It's just how I see it tbh. That's perfectly fair enough - I don't necessarily agree with you, but I totally get where you're coming from. It's been a rough season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, ferguson1 said: I just don’t think he is getting the best out of what he has. This is the point I have an issue with - I just don't see this squad, as a whole, as being much more than they currently are. I think certain players could perform better if they had the right supporting cast around them - but if they don't exist, what are the former supposed to do? I don't want short term solutions to things that are unsustainable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, lexicon said: I think that's a very weird position to take. We were far worse before the restart. Not when it comes to picking up points. 2 in the last 6. 4 in the 6 games before the break. 10 in the 10 before the break. But lets be clear all of this is dire. Relegation form. If we can stay up we can and should try and get a higher caliber manager in. This season has shown Smith to be one of the weakest in the PL. And even if we pull off a escape we should replace him. I don't go for the "he deserves to stay on" idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, sne said: Not when it comes to picking up points. 2 in the last 6. 4 in the 6 games before the break. 10 in the 10 before the break. But lets be clear all of this is dire. Relegation form. If we can stay up we can and should try and get a higher caliber manager in. This season has shown Smith to be one of the weakest in the PL. And even if we pull off a escape we should replace him. I don't go for the "he deserves to stay on" idea. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think there are many managers that would have done a whole lot better, certainly not ones that would be available to us, when you take everything into consideration that we've had to deal with this year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson1 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, lexicon said: This is the point I have an issue with - I just don't see this squad, as a whole, as being much more than they currently are. I think certain players could perform better if they had the right supporting cast around them - but if they don't exist, what are the former supposed to do? I don't want short term solutions to things that are unsustainable. I don’t think the squad can give much more, but just better organisation and decision making during games may have changed one or two results for us. Smith certainly has limitations and I think this league is a step too far for him unfortunately. Stick or twist in the Championship, I just don’t know. Personally, I think a change would be best just to give the whole place a lift. Edited July 10, 2020 by ferguson1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, lexicon said: We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think there are many managers that would have done a whole lot better, certainly not ones that would be available to us, when you take everything into consideration that we've had to deal with this year. Yup, agree to disagree. I think there are tons of managers who could create a working team out of these guys. Not a great side, but a cohesive unit at least. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPAngel Posted July 10, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, sne said: Not when it comes to picking up points. 2 in the last 6. 4 in the 6 games before the break. 10 in the 10 before the break. But lets be clear all of this is dire. Relegation form. If we can stay up we can and should try and get a higher caliber manager in. This season has shown Smith to be one of the weakest in the PL. And even if we pull off a escape we should replace him. I don't go for the "he deserves to stay on" idea. I agree with this. Although I think the board will act in the following way: We stay up - Smith keeps his job because he kept us in the division We go down - Smith keeps his job for getting us into the division and also to continue with the master plan* *Which presumably included getting relegated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, lexicon said: This is the point I have an issue with - I just don't see this squad, as a whole, as being much more than they currently are. I think certain players could perform better if they had the right supporting cast around them - but if they don't exist, what are the former supposed to do? I don't want short term solutions to things that are unsustainable. Well weve been looking long term for about 10 years now. If anyone starts talking about "buying into the vision". "changing the ethos" or "laying long term foundations" - they can feck right off. Appoint the best manager we can with the aim of coming out the blocks on fire at the start of next season... There are two many variables to be planning for 5 - 10 years down the line. Keep the focus on the here and now and the future will take care of itself. Edited July 10, 2020 by hippo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, lexicon said: 'The reality of that bad penalty decision would fire most teams into life to get there (sic) own back' - Based on what? Examples please. 'The team is underachieving under Smith' - Really? Do you think this group of players is much better than where we are? 'As soon as a goal is scored in any match, even if we score the goal our heads drop' - What on earth are you talking about? Goals change games. Man Utd, 5th in the league, came to life after what was a clearly bullshit decision. We'd take any of their players to improve our first team and in an even fight, i.e. on paper, we lose ten times out of ten if both teams perform like they can. How about this (as an example only ) Pocho is the manager right from the start of the season ( or even only from the restart ) We have the exact same squad. Do you think we would be in a better position ? In other words "its the manager that makes the difference" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, JPAngel said: I agree with this. Although I think the board will act in the following way: We stay up - Smith keeps his job because he kept us in the division We go down - Smith keeps his job for getting us into the division and also to continue with the master plan* *Which presumably included getting relegated Keep him next season will stink of a lack of ambition from the board - it will also make me wonder why they write of millions of pounds of debt each month to keep us afloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, PussEKatt said: How about this (as an example only ) Pocho is the manager right from the start of the season ( or even only from the restart ) We have the exact same squad. Do you think we would be in a better position ? In other words "its the manager that makes the difference" Of course it does - it's the most crucial thing the club does. Over the years we have fudged it - or just made daft appointments. Get the manager right and most other things fall into place. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, PussEKatt said: How about this (as an example only ) Pocho is the manager right from the start of the season ( or even only from the restart ) We have the exact same squad. Do you think we would be in a better position ? In other words "its the manager that makes the difference" That's the thing, I'm not sure we actually would. The players are nowhere near good enough for the league that we have found ourselves in. If we get one injury then we rely on players like Davis, Hourihane and Hause who weren't particularly good in the Championship. I just don't think this squad is capable of anywhere near what some people on here seem to think. I guess the more important question is whether we'd have bought this squad if Pochetinno was manager. I'd like to think he'd have been able to assemble a better squad initially. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, hippo said: Well weve been looking long term for about 10 years now. If anyone starts talking about "buying into the vision". "changing the ethos" or "laying long term foundations" - they can feck right off. Appoint the best manager we can with the aim of coming out the blocks on fire at the start of next season... There are two many variables to be planning for 5 - 10 years down the line. Keep the focus on the here and now and the future will take care of itself. We've changed owners and staff twice in the last few years - it's clearly not the same. Lerner had checked out, Xia was a fraud, but these guys have a lot more about them than what we were dealing with before. If you honestly think just chopping and changing whenever you feel like it is a prudent strategy, then just look at the Ellis era and why that failed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 He needs to go no matter which league we are in next season. The club is too big for him unfortunately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, lexicon said: We've changed owners and staff twice in the last few years - it's clearly not the same. Lerner had checked out, Xia was a fraud, but these guys have a lot more about them than what we were dealing with before. If you honestly think just chopping and changing whenever you feel like it is a prudent strategy, then just look at the Ellis era and why that failed too. People aren't saying we should just chop and change willy nilly. However, going with the status quo purely on the idea of "stability" or 'long-term vision" or whatever is silly. It wasn't any kind of "stability" that got us promoted in the first place, it was the owners rightfully judging Bruce had failed and they needed a new approach. Why are people so hesitant to do the same with Smith? To be frank, I don't really think people believe in the "long-term vision" arguments as they really just want another reason to argue why Smith should be kept. Edited July 10, 2020 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: That's the thing, I'm not sure we actually would. The players are nowhere near good enough for the league that we have found ourselves in. If we get one injury then we rely on players like Davis, Hourihane and Hause who weren't particularly good in the Championship. I just don't think this squad is capable of anywhere near what some people on here seem to think. I guess the more important question is whether we'd have bought this squad if Pochetinno was manager. I'd like to think he'd have been able to assemble a better squad initially. The point I am trying to make is that under Poch.This team,these players would not be in the relegation zone.Ok we would not be challenging for a top 4 finish,but much more importantly,we would not be in a relegation battle.In other words a manager who is more/better experianced would get more out of this squad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Again, I would have been OK with him in the Championship, He's a solid Championship manager. But he looks spent. Zero confidence, we behave as if he has begun doubting himself and what he does and that would be a huge red flag (I don't know him for all I know he could be super confident in what he does, but that's not how it looks) He's also had a incredibly difficult year off field so who knows if he's even up for starting all again next season. Sure he loves Villa but it'd be understandable if he wasn't 100% in the right state of mind to "go again" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, Laughable Chimp said: People aren't saying we should just chop and change willy nilly. However, going with the status quo purely on the idea of "stability" or 'long-term vision" or whatever is silly. It wasn't any kind of "stability" that got us promoted in the first place, it was the owners rightfully judging Bruce had failed and they needed a new approach. Why are people so hesitant to do the same with Smith? Because the situation is entirely different. If you think that the squad we have today is premier league standard, then that's up to you. I don't think it is and I don't blame Smith entirely for where we are, with all the context that we have from this season to go on - near total rebuild, huge influx of players that we had to take punts on, season-ending injuries to first choice keeper and striker etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, hippo said: Well weve been looking long term for about 10 years now. If anyone starts talking about "buying into the vision". "changing the ethos" or "laying long term foundations" - they can feck right off. Appoint the best manager we can with the aim of coming out the blocks on fire at the start of next season... There are two many variables to be planning for 5 - 10 years down the line. Keep the focus on the here and now and the future will take care of itself. I agree. Fancy slogans and wonderful kit launches mean bugger all if the footballing matters of the club are not correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, lexicon said: Because the situation is entirely different. If you think that the squad we have today is premier league standard, then that's up to you. I don't think it is and I don't blame Smith entirely for where we are, with all the context that we have from this season to go on - near total rebuild, huge influx of players that we had to take punts on, season-ending injuries to first choice keeper and striker etc. This is a valid point, but its not really anything to do with the original point you made which is the one I was arguing against. Look, you think that Smith can't do better with the cards he has. That's fair, I disagree but I can't definitively prove you wrong here just as you can't definitively prove me wrong. This however is the only solid basis of your and the pro-Smith argument. Its why this one point has been repeatedly insisted again and again ad nauseaum in this thread. Pretty much every pro-smith claim in this thread goes back to this one claim that cannot be definitively proven wrong. The other stuff about how we shouldn't sack Smith because of "stability" or anything similar however is just bollocks. Its not for this reason why you think we should stick with Smith. If you think Smith should've done better, you wouldn't be arguing that we should stick with Smith because we need more "stability". The point I'm making is that I don't think you and the pro-Smith arguers truly believe in this point. You believe in the point you stated above, not this one. Edited July 10, 2020 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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