Dean Smith

[DCJonah]

2 minutes ago, Mantis said:

And what agenda is this? Just because I disagree with you on him doesn't mean I have some sort of rabid anti-Smith agenda. Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

Nothing to do with disagreeing with me. Its the ignoring facts to ensure you can be critical about the man. 

[Stevo985]

18 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think part of the reason we looked better is we had everyone fit and still had the positivity and confidence from promotion. 

I think a lot of teams playing with 3rd choice keepers and back up attackers would start to look a lot worse. Losing a midfield player like mcginn when back up options are atrocious is also going to have a knock on effect. 

I don't think we were so good earlier on in the season that it looked like everything would be OK. 

We seem to ignore the poor games we had at the start. The Bournemouth game was terrible. The draw with 10 man west ham was poor, the loss to Palace was awful, the defeats at home to Southampton and away to Watford were dreadful. The win at Everton was good but we relied on Walcott missing a sitter to survive the pressure they were putting us under. Mcginn and Wesley played big parts against arsenal and Norwich. 

We had some moments but now injuries and confidence are rock bottom its easy to see why those moments have disappeared. 

Another massive reason for a difference is the form of our best player. 

Nobody is ignoring the bad games we had at the start. But the difference was we had good games to get points on the board.

Now we have absolutely nothing. It's just shit game after shit game and it's getting worse. 

Nobody is expecting every game to be good. But SOME games should be good. Yes some good games involve luck but you play well enough to make sure you capitalise on that luck. We haven't played like that since January.

 

And sorry but the positivity and confidence, and form of any of our players especially Jack, is the manager's job. That is exactly the kind of stuff he is failing at.
His job is to get the best out of his players. He's not doing that. 

[Laughable Chimp]

24 minutes ago, Zatman said:

We were 12th in February and Purslow said on Smith unveiling in October that promotion next season was the target

If we strolled to promotion like Wolves did I guarantee we wouldn't have signed players like Trezeguet, Jota etc. 

Trez and Jota would've been signed to try and get us promoted. They would still be with us.

[foreveryoung]

8 minutes ago, danceoftheshamen said:

For me we spent 140m replacing older players who's legs would not be up to Premier League levels any more (Whelan, Hutton, Jedinak, Adomah) with bang average unproven and worse players. Then we lost two of our best players from the promotion push, Tuanzebe who was a rock in our defence with Mings & Hutton & crucially Abraham. Our leading scorer was replaced by Wesley...enough said! No wonder we have struggled really as i can't actually see a single player there who has come in and been better than the one they replaced aside from maybe Heaton who we lost months ago! No surprise our disgusting run started when he got injured.

To me Wesley is proof Smith is not a great coach. Smith had no idea how to use him, he is always making Grealish his priority. As far as I saw we didn't use Wesley to the best of his ability and he was massively underachieving, like the rest of the team actually

[DCJonah]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nobody is ignoring the bad games we had at the start. But the difference was we had good games to get points on the board.

Now we have absolutely nothing. It's just shit game after shit game and it's getting worse. 

Nobody is expecting every game to be good. But SOME games should be good. Yes some good games involve luck but you play well enough to make sure you capitalise on that luck. We haven't played like that since January.

 

And sorry but the positivity and confidence, and form of any of our players especially Jack, is the manager's job. That is exactly the kind of stuff he is failing at.
His job is to get the best out of his players. He's not doing that. 

But look at those games that got points on the board and the players that really contributed. 

Wesley for all his faults contributed in wins against Everton, Norwich and Burnley. 

A fully fit mcginn contributed to a point at home to Burnley. 

Grealish pretty much got us 3 pts against Brighton at home and a pt away, as well his contributions in many other games. 

I'm not a huge fan of wesley but he clearly contributes more than the current forwards, losing him, Heaton and Mcginn took away 3 players who are capable of making big contributions. And we have no one in the squad who can match them. 

Grealish has the biggest impact on the team and to be honest I find it hard to be critical of smith in that regard. Grealish has been at his consistent best under smith. Is it a coincidence his form has dropped after his antics during lockdown and troubles with the police? Hardly the best preparation to coming back, especially when you compare it to luiz. 

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, Johnnyp said:

I agree with this. We won't be able to get shot of much of this bunch so the solution is a better manager, it's that simple. Successful businesses make ruthless decisions every day of the week. Sack Dean Smith. I'd air on the side of caution though when you go after a manager who's sales pitch to his potential employers is " I'll give you attacking football " Well, are you gonna give me winning football would be my reply. I keep harping back to Hassenhutl. Are they exciting, end to end, have you off your seat team ? No. Are they very well coached, honest of effort, extremely well prepped going into a game and tactically better month on month ? Yes. Are they boring to watch ? Absolutely not. That's what id want.

Agreed. We are in the entertainment business so we should be entertained, but we won’t feel entertained if we don’t win!!

[VillaCas]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Its not expectations with me.....The main reason why I think he should go, is discipline, which covers a multitude of criteria.

I don't see the fitness, belief, the desire, the will, the combative need to deny the opposition, all the things that Stan Petrov highlighted in his interview.....I have said it so many times on here, he ( IMO) is too affable, and players or any group, can take advantage of that, inadvertently.

There is a clear divide on here of what type of football we want to watch and that debate attracts pole opposites of opinion......one group see's us, just going out an doing it, gung ho, easy on the eye......the other group being more pragmatic and senses you have to with the right to play good football, by indulging in the ugly mundane stuff, until the opponent realises they are in a game.....its that side of things I don't think Dean has a complete handle on, for starters he hasn't surrounded himself with enough players who can do it.....as an example Chris Wilder has and look at his win ratio in nearly 900 games.....its whats in Dean and what isn't , that influences me.

I don’t think we lack discipline - we are not having players sent off, there is no talk of unrest, there are not rows between the bench and the players and if your argument is that it is because DS is too affable John Terry is certainly not - what are your examples of a lack of discipline?

Secondly, I don’t believe that the majority of our players are any less fit than any other PL team - I will exclude Nakamba, Wesley and Samatta from this but would argue that there slow start to the season was due to the league they arrived from. Who else isn’t fit?? Trez is a prime example of someone who can tear around all day (but too no avail)

Thirdly, you argue we haven’t got the right sort of player who can do the ugly stuff - chase, win the ball, fight etc - I would argue that we have got the right type but are not ready for PL football week in week out (Nakamba, Luiz) injured ( McGinn) or not of sufficient quality (Trez, Davis).......there is also the perennial debate about who takes responsibility for the recruitment of these players

Ultimately the situation is

- 18 months ago we had an ageing squad and an over reliance on loanees

- We got promoted against expectations 

- We had a late start to the transfer window due to the play-offs and turnover of 30+ players

You can disagree about expectations all day long but people got carried away with £140m spent (It’s not that much when you are buying 15 players) and had grandiose expectations of battling at the top half of the table - as you know I predicted that we would be in a battle for 17th place

Im not upset with Smith because my expectation was that we would be exactly where we are ( and I never thought that a battle for 17th would feel anything but massively frustrating)

If a quality manager is available I would take him but if not I would rather stick with Smith and trust that he has learnt a lot from the PL and from a full season with his players - should he stay I would expect that many of the problems we’ve seen will be addressed by a few more experienced heads in the transfer window

I don’t think JohnTerry is an idiot and I don’t think he would be sticking around here if he thought Smith was

[Johnnyp]

2 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

Agreed. We are in the entertainment business so we should be entertained, but we won’t feel entertained if we don’t win!!

Exactly. And it's all relative anyway when you think of it like this. You won't win games and do well in this league anyway if you haven't got a bit about you in terms of talent and footballing ability, so it's very unlikely and highly inaccurate when people say teams like say Burnley for instance just play boring football. You don't mug world class players, get to 49 points in the league and have quite a good season if you haven't played some decent stuff. Not in this league. 

[VillaCas]

57 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Then why did this squad look ten times netter earlier in the season?

I just think that changing the odd thing here and there to try and improve had the opposite effect, and in combination with inevitable injuries lead to a slump. From then on it was a confidence thing too

[Johnnyp]

22 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

To me Wesley is proof Smith is not a great coach. Smith had no idea how to use him, he is always making Grealish his priority. As far as I saw we didn't use Wesley to the best of his ability and he was massively underachieving, like the rest of the team actually

Partly true but sitting on his arse sulking after not getting a free is not on Smith. He's a big lump of a lad, needs to toughen up. Alderwierald and Sanchez threw him around like a rag doll opening day of the season. He toughened up a bit. Where is he in his rehab ? Will he be ready for the start of the new season ?

[Mantis]

34 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Nothing to do with disagreeing with me. Its the ignoring facts to ensure you can be critical about the man. 

And what facts would these be?

[VillaCas]

28 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

To me Wesley is proof Smith is not a great coach. Smith had no idea how to use him, he is always making Grealish his priority. As far as I saw we didn't use Wesley to the best of his ability and he was massively underachieving, like the rest of the team actually

That or Wesley is crap?

[Zhan_Zhuang]

3 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Where is he in his rehab ? Will he be ready for the start of the new season ?

Last time I checked, fit again end of August. So no not back for the start of the season.

[avfc1982am]

4 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

I just think that changing the odd thing here and there to try and improve had the opposite effect, and in combination with inevitable injuries lead to a slump. From then on it was a confidence thing too

I actually don't think your far off here. On the basis of your comments though you could argue that the slump is as much down to Smith then. I mean if he's changing things for the worse, not picking the players up and instilling the right information into them who else is to blame?

[hippo]

2 hours ago, A'Villan said:

Apologies hippo, you've made an engaging and thoughtful reply but it's my bedtime so I'm going to be brief.

Excellent questions, questions that have to be asked, and again, unfortunately, I don't have much in the way of reassurances regarding our future from here under Smith.

Let us also ask this, If we beat Crystal Palace and West Ham, hell, throw in a draw against one of Everton or Arsenal, and survive, ultimately, is it complete and utter failure?

Or is it that we have faced disappointment for so long that we have let our predictions become assumptions and the emotions that accompany influence our perspective.

I have read a snippet from Petrov's commentary as posted above, seems like he's campaigning for some leadership! Great! We bloody well need it.

However I also felt whilst reading his thoughts that it's easy to focus on the flaws of others and perhaps lack awareness of our own while doing so.

I think what Petrov had to say was great in some respects, truly, because for the first 25 minutes, we were asking questions of United's defense. After the penalty, disappointing.

Had we shown a bit more resolve and dug deep, then we might've got something out of the game. At the end of the day though, Petrov is just airing his feelings.

It's also true and fair to acknowledge that goals change games, and our initial spark was deflated, United suddenly hold the cards through no real skill or effort on their behalf.

For me personally though, going over the loss to United like people are inadequate not only in a playing sense but a leadership sense is more Petrov blowing his own horn than helping.

If we stay up - no that doesn't represent failure. Actually I will go a step further - if we went down by goal difference on the last day of the season - that would imo be enough to buy Smith time.

But to go down with a whimper, in a season where there are some bloody poor teams in the prem - that can not be tolerated imo . Fine margins I know but that's how it is.

I would love to think we are on the right track with DS - he seems a top bloke - and we know his feelings for the club. Whenever he returns to VP as an opposition manger - I will be out of my seat applauding him 

But sadly it hasn't worked out -and even a summer break , and lower division won't convince me we are on the right track.

 

[hippo]

49 minutes ago, danceoftheshamen said:

For me we spent 140m replacing older players who's legs would not be up to Premier League levels any more (Whelan, Hutton, Jedinak, Adomah) with bang average unproven and worse players. Then we lost two of our best players from the promotion push, Tuanzebe who was a rock in our defence with Mings & Hutton & crucially Abraham. Our leading scorer was replaced by Wesley...enough said! No wonder we have struggled really as i can't actually see a single player there who has come in and been better than the one they replaced aside from maybe Hettaton who we lost months ago! No surprise our disgusting run started when he got injured.

I agree Wesley looks garbage and a massive downgrade on TA. But scoring goals isn't our problem even with Mings & Heaton in the defence we are leaking goals.

[foreveryoung]

40 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

But look at those games that got points on the board and the players that really contributed. 

Wesley for all his faults contributed in wins against Everton, Norwich and Burnley. 

A fully fit mcginn contributed to a point at home to Burnley. 

Grealish pretty much got us 3 pts against Brighton at home and a pt away, as well his contributions in many other games. 

I'm not a huge fan of wesley but he clearly contributes more than the current forwards, losing him, Heaton and Mcginn took away 3 players who are capable of making big contributions. And we have no one in the squad who can match them. 

Grealish has the biggest impact on the team and to be honest I find it hard to be critical of smith in that regard. Grealish has been at his consistent best under smith. Is it a coincidence his form has dropped after his antics during lockdown and troubles with the police? Hardly the best preparation to coming back, especially when you compare it to luiz. 

No he has not! You just looking for evidence now Smith is doing a good job. Grealish has been up and down all season, an the lockdown antics should not be used as an excuse for his poor form on the pitch.

[VillaCas]

42 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

I actually don't think your far off here. On the basis of your comments though you could argue that the slump is as much down to Smith then. I mean if he's changing things for the worse, not picking the players up and instilling the right information into them who else is to blame?

It could be down to Smith, although that assumes that there was a combination of changes that would have been successful. 

Many will make the case for that but personally I think that there was no magic combination to be found.

Smith has made mistakes and will learn but the main problem in my opinion is the quality and experience of the squad - I believe we will put that right in the summer

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

But look at those games that got points on the board and the players that really contributed. 

Wesley for all his faults contributed in wins against Everton, Norwich and Burnley. 

A fully fit mcginn contributed to a point at home to Burnley. 

Grealish pretty much got us 3 pts against Brighton at home and a pt away, as well his contributions in many other games. 

I'm not a huge fan of wesley but he clearly contributes more than the current forwards, losing him, Heaton and Mcginn took away 3 players who are capable of making big contributions. And we have no one in the squad who can match them. 

Grealish has the biggest impact on the team and to be honest I find it hard to be critical of smith in that regard. Grealish has been at his consistent best under smith. Is it a coincidence his form has dropped after his antics during lockdown and troubles with the police? Hardly the best preparation to coming back, especially when you compare it to luiz. 

I’m not surprised you find it hard to be critical of Smith. 
 

The form of Grealish falls at his feet. It’s his job to motivate his players, use them correctly and get the best out of them. 
 

He’s not doing that. 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

I just think that changing the odd thing here and there to try and improve had the opposite effect, and in combination with inevitable injuries lead to a slump. From then on it was a confidence thing too

So the changes Smith has made has made us worse and he’s failed to instil any confidence in the players?

id probably agree with that.