villalad21 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I don't think anyone is saying that Dean is fully responsible for the poor recruitment. But to say he had no say at all. I find that very hard to believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Johnnyp Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, VillaCas said: Complete nonsense. Managers have an impact but quality of player available is at least as important and probably more so OGS is an absolute case in point, with crap players at Cardiff his win ratio was 30%, now by being in the right place at the right time is he all of a sudden a great manager? NO, he’s just got very very good players. But a very good coach can improve the collective ability of team who's individual ability might not be top notch. Improving shape, tactically more aware, positionally better and improving little nuances in a players game. Southampton may have better players than us individually but not by much but as a team they are head and shoulders above us. They got a genuine world class manager. I don't think one can understate the impact Fernandes has had. Looks like he's walked in and took over the dressing room. My point basically though is, if between now and next season we think we are going to be lumbered with most of what we've got, the only logical solution is spend money on a seriously well credentialed ( preferably continental coach ) who might make this lot better with shape, intensity, fitter, tactically better footballers. Definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. If Smith can't get mistakes, poor play, half arsed efforts ironed out of these lads by now - give it to someone who might be able to. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, PussEKatt said: Here is part of what Petrov said on "Newsnow" As a club, as a team - performances this season, it's not been good enough. If we start nitpicking at little incidents, we can go back to Sheffield United earlier after the pandemic," said Petrov speaking to BBC Radio 5 Live. "It wasn't the issue. I don't think the penalty incident was the issue for Villa at the moment. I think this is something used to deflect from what is happening. "I think the performance was flat. I didn't see any leadership, desire or a willingness to win. This is the main concern for me, not the penalty. "When you're in a relegation battle and you fight for your life to survive - if you do not have leaders or players with strong mentality, this could affect you. "The problem? The reaction afterwards. It looks like we did not go for it. It looks like we did not believe in ourselves. This is the biggest concern for me, not the penalty. absolutely and utterly spot on. The sort of stuff Stan is talking about is inbred in players minds by managers( but they have to have the charisma to do it).....its a method of programming and instilling belief. Deans words( " The team mirrors me ").....that is precisely what it does and it shows. brilliant resume in a nutshell. Edited July 10, 2020 by TRO 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, Graham t said: 'Mitigating circumstances ', I think you will find that these are normally called 'excuses '..... VLD. I'm not interested in a debate on semantics. Feel free to discuss the issues at hand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 34 minutes ago, A'Villan said: Tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the bold. Unfortunately though, for us, the phrase in bold is witty and useful because it takes something that can be difficult to grasp and makes it simple, it's not actually a blueprint for success. It's a wonderfully simple reminder that if we keep things focused and spirit in check, the work in which needs doing in order to triumph gets done, as opposed to being distracted. The here and now for Villa, what does that mean? For me, we had a 40% turnover in squad personnel at seasons beginning, with the other clubs averaging at most a 10% turnover. We lacked chemistry. We lacked experience. We lacked depth. With the exception of a few excellent acquisitions, we even lacked in talent ready for this league. I'm not really here to debate what next. As far as I'm concerned I'm still comfortable with Smith at the helm. When I say that, I'm not suggesting, by any means that it's certain he'll prove the man we need him to be. I think he did great in the championship, even when results weren't coming. I think he's had absolute mountains to move in achieving survival this season. The margins for error were fine, always were going to be, and we've had our fair share of errors being a result of our own doing, and at times unfortunate situations out of our hands. OK Fair points - build for the future etc - but do you accept total and utter failure as an indicator that something is being built ? - I don't see why building for the future means the immediate short term should be dross - ? - How do we know we are the right track ? TBH there is more evidence we aren't. A defence which which for a good whack of the season has contained Mings, Heaton, Targett - shouldn't be amongst the worse in the division - The current manager has a history of leaky defences and losing leads - I could be wrong and he might rectify that over the summer - are you that confident. Read Petrovs article tonight - hes right on the money. No many many managers survive the sort of stats that Smith is now clocking up, whatever the mitigating circumstances - I don't believe the current board spent £140m and underwrite the club for millions of pounds monthly without wanting some signs of progress in return. I believe the board will dispense with both both DS and Susso shortly after the season ends. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, TRO said: so why doesn't Dean get a job in the top half of the table or be even linked with one, when they become available. Because he’s not good enough!!!! I don’t think anyone speaking up for DS thinks he is currently anything more than a lower-half PL manager at best. If we could sign Pochitino or similar I’d happily help DS pack up his desk but I see no benefit of swapping him for Chris Hughton or similar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, VillaCas said: Because he’s not good enough!!!! I don’t think anyone speaking up for DS thinks he is currently anything more than a lower-half PL manager at best. If we could sign Pochitino or similar I’d happily help DS pack up his desk but I see no benefit of swapping him for Chris Hughton or similar Ok. That's fair. Pretty much where i'm at. It all depends on who is available. I don't see Hughton as a big improvement. Purslow has stated that we want to play attacking and attractive football so i don't even think the likes of Hughton and Dyche are options. They won't be approached. Edited July 10, 2020 by villalad21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Villa_Vids said: I think any long term planning can only really apply to the academy/youth side of things at the moment. Continuity for the sake of it is, if not worse, just as bad as chopping and changing managers regularly. In my mind, stability needs to be based on keeping a core group of 1st team players together too. A group that are also improving and developing game by game & season by season. The stability we have had at Villa has been sticking by failing/poor managers for far too long, and then those managers overhauling their squads each summer going away from their original philosophy. I am unconvinced by Dean Smith. As it stands, I do not think he is the right person for us next season. I would personally take a more traditional approach next season, bringing in somebody like Chris Hughton and build for immediate promotion. It is so so important to have a bullish DOF and minimal squad changes (losing and replacing our better players!) in the unlikely scenario Smith stays on. I can't think of a villa manager that got sacked to early - nor can I think of one that went onto better things elsewhere.- our appointments since MON have been awful look at the managers Watford get through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 The VAR debacle should not have been the problem it has been made out to be. A goal from a bad VAR decision or the ball going in off a defender's arse or a rocket from open play - it is still only a goal. Something to be overcome, fight back for a draw or even a win. Not just give up. I thought that the injustice of it might have spurred them on, but not this team. They have no system, no confidence, no cohesion, no fight. That is down to the manager, We must get rid of him. We need him gone as soon as relegation is confirmed, so we can build a management team and a squad with the proper attitude and teamwork to get us back up with a better chance of staying up this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, VillaCas said: Because he’s not good enough!!!! I don’t think anyone speaking up for DS thinks he is currently anything more than a lower-half PL manager at best. If we could sign Pochitino or similar I’d happily help DS pack up his desk but I see no benefit of swapping him for Chris Hughton or similar I accept sacking him with no idea with what to replace him with is petulant. Chris Hughton, not shouting for him.....but he is not bad, but better than a lot give him credit for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, hippo said: OK Fair points - build for the future etc - but do you accept total and utter failure as an indicator that something is being built ? - I don't see why building for the future means the immediate short term should be dross - ? - How do we know we are the right track ? TBH there is more evidence we aren't. A defence which which for a good whack of the season has contained Mings, Heaton, Targett - shouldn't be amongst the worse in the division - The current manager has a history of leaky defences and losing leads - I could be wrong and he might rectify that over the summer - are you that confident. Read Petrovs article tonight - hes right on the money. No many many managers survive the sort of stats that Smith is now clocking up, whatever the mitigating circumstances - I don't believe the current board spent £140m and underwrite the club for millions of pounds monthly without wanting some signs of progress in return. I believe the board will dispense with both both DS and Susso shortly after the season ends. He is pretty much mirroring what i've been saying. Blaming VAR for yesterday's game is papering over the cracks. We have far bigger problems we need to worry about than VAR. Edited July 10, 2020 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: Ok. That's fair. Pretty much where i'm at. It all depends on who is available. I don't see Hughton as a big improvement. Probably isn't a big improvement - but it would be a fresh start, send a message through the club that failure isn't tolerated - Hughton is a free agent and has got two clubs promoted from the championship. I d hope for better tbh - but chugging on with smith IMO will waste another season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, hippo said: Probably isn't a big improvement - but it would be a fresh start, send a message through the club that failure isn't tolerated - Hughton is a free agent and has got two clubs promoted from the championship. I d hope for better tbh - but chugging on with smith IMO will waste another season. It can work playing attacking football and still thriving, even with lesser players. Look at Brighton. I don't see any reason to abandon the attacking football route. We just need a manager that can do a better job at it than Smith. And who isn't tactically inept. We can't keep going back and fourth. "We want attacking football let's go for De Matteo. We ain't getting results, let's go for a pragmatic manager like Bruce! The football is boring..let's go for an attacking manager like Smith." Edited July 10, 2020 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Ok. That's fair. Pretty much where i'm at. It all depends on who is available. I don't see Hughton as a big improvement. Purslow has stated that we want to play attacking and attractive football so i don't even think the likes of Hughton and Dyche are even options. They won't be approached. 1 minute ago, TRO said: I accept sacking him with no idea with what to replace him with is petulant. Chris Hughton, not shouting for him.....but he is not bad, but better than a lot give him credit for. We’ve disagreed over the past weeks but I honestly think it’s just a matter of expectations - as you know, I thought during the summer that we had not recruited well enough and we were in for a massive struggle - others, maybe yourselves thought we were capable of better This will not be a popular opinion but I actually don’t think we are as far off being decent as many here do - two or three quality signings with experience would transform the squad and I also think Smith will be a better manager next season too If a top quality coach is available, great! If not, I would stick with Smith for the first dozen games at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, hippo said: OK Fair points - build for the future etc - but do you accept total and utter failure as an indicator that something is being built ? - I don't see why building for the future means the immediate short term should be dross - ? - How do we know we are the right track ? TBH there is more evidence we aren't. A defence which which for a good whack of the season has contained Mings, Heaton, Targett - shouldn't be amongst the worse in the division - The current manager has a history of leaky defences and losing leads - I could be wrong and he might rectify that over the summer - are you that confident. Read Petrovs article tonight - hes right on the money. No many many managers survive the sort of stats that Smith is now clocking up, whatever the mitigating circumstances - I don't believe the current board spent £140m and underwrite the club for millions of pounds monthly without wanting some signs of progress in return. I believe the board will dispense with both both DS and Susso shortly after the season ends. Apologies hippo, you've made an engaging and thoughtful reply but it's my bedtime so I'm going to be brief. Excellent questions, questions that have to be asked, and again, unfortunately, I don't have much in the way of reassurances regarding our future from here under Smith. Let us also ask this, If we beat Crystal Palace and West Ham, hell, throw in a draw against one of Everton or Arsenal, and survive, ultimately, is it complete and utter failure? Or is it that we have faced disappointment for so long that we have let our predictions become assumptions and the emotions that accompany influence our perspective. I have read a snippet from Petrov's commentary as posted above, seems like he's campaigning for some leadership! Great! We bloody well need it. However I also felt whilst reading his thoughts that it's easy to focus on the flaws of others and perhaps lack awareness of our own while doing so. I think what Petrov had to say was great in some respects, truly, because for the first 25 minutes, we were asking questions of United's defense. After the penalty, disappointing. Had we shown a bit more resolve and dug deep, then we might've got something out of the game. At the end of the day though, Petrov is just airing his feelings. It's also true and fair to acknowledge that goals change games, and our initial spark was deflated, United suddenly hold the cards through no real skill or effort on their behalf. For me personally though, going over the loss to United like people are inadequate not only in a playing sense but a leadership sense is more Petrov blowing his own horn than helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Johnnyp said: But a very good coach can improve the collective ability of team who's individual ability might not be top notch. Improving shape, tactically more aware, positionally better and improving little nuances in a players game. Southampton may have better players than us individually but not by much but as a team they are head and shoulders above us. They got a genuine world class manager. I don't think one can understate the impact Fernandes has had. Looks like he's walked in and took over the dressing room. My point basically though is, if between now and next season we think we are going to be lumbered with most of what we've got, the only logical solution is spend money on a seriously well credentialed ( preferably continental coach ) who might make this lot better with shape, intensity, fitter, tactically better footballers. Definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. If Smith can't get mistakes, poor play, half arsed efforts ironed out of these lads by now - give it to someone who might be able to. Also you missed a decent manager can coach a team of professional footballers to throw a ball, take a half decent set piece and even maybe beat the first man on a corner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyp Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, villalad21 said: It can work playing attacking football and still thriving, even with lesser players. Look at Brighton. I don't see any reason to abandon the attacking football route. We just need a manager that can do a better job at it than Smith. And who isn't tactically inept. Our setup isn't similar to Brighton's though because we've got a sporting director in Suso and a manager in Smith who are not compatible, at all, nothing even close to been. Like been told who his assistant manager was going to be when he got the call of the job offer, he got told he had to work with a sporting director he had zero chemistry or similar football ideologies with. Brighton, much different. Dan Ashworth wanted Brighton to play a certain way when he came in, acquire a certain player to fit that way of playing and a manger to implement that style of play. He dispensed of Hughton ( good manager btw ) and went after Potter. And it's not like Suso is just in the door either, i don't see sweeping cultural changes around the club. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, VillaCas said: We’ve disagreed over the past weeks but I honestly think it’s just a matter of expectations - as you know, I thought during the summer that we had not recruited well enough and we were in for a massive struggle - others, maybe yourselves thought we were capable of better This will not be a popular opinion but I actually don’t think we are as far off being decent as many here do - two or three quality signings with experience would transform the squad and I also think Smith will be a better manager next season too If a top quality coach is available, great! If not, I would stick with Smith for the first dozen games at least Its not expectations with me.....The main reason why I think he should go, is discipline, which covers a multitude of criteria. I don't see the fitness, belief, the desire, the will, the combative need to deny the opposition, all the things that Stan Petrov highlighted in his interview.....I have said it so many times on here, he ( IMO) is too affable, and players or any group, can take advantage of that, inadvertently. There is a clear divide on here of what type of football we want to watch and that debate attracts pole opposites of opinion......one group see's us, just going out an doing it, gung ho, easy on the eye......the other group being more pragmatic and senses you have to win the right to play good football, by indulging in the ugly mundane stuff, until the opponent realises they are in a game.....its that side of things I don't think Dean has a complete handle on, for starters he hasn't surrounded himself with enough players who can do it.....as an example Chris Wilder has and look at his win ratio in nearly 900 games.....its whats in Dean and what isn't , that influences me. Edited July 10, 2020 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyp Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, villalad21 said: It can work playing attacking football and still thriving, even with lesser players. Look at Brighton. I don't see any reason to abandon the attacking football route. We just need a manager that can do a better job at it than Smith. And who isn't tactically inept. I agree with this. We won't be able to get shot of much of this bunch so the solution is a better manager, it's that simple. Successful businesses make ruthless decisions every day of the week. Sack Dean Smith. I'd air on the side of caution though when you go after a manager who's sales pitch to his potential employers is " I'll give you attacking football " Well, are you gonna give me winning football would be my reply. I keep harping back to Hassenhutl. Are they exciting, end to end, have you off your seat team ? No. Are they very well coached, honest of effort, extremely well prepped going into a game and tactically better month on month ? Yes. Are they boring to watch ? Absolutely not. That's what id want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, DCJonah said: This is where it becomes an agenda. Ridiculous. So I have an anti-Smith "agenda" now because I point out how poor we were last season when Grealish was out injured? 2 hours ago, Mjvilla said: I went to Bristol city at home last season (my only game), all the talk before was Grealish was out and we were sure fire to lose without him. We absolute smashed them. Should have won by 6/7. Their keeper had the game of his life. It's been my favourite game to go to in very recent memory. I don't go very often. This myth that we looked awful without Grealish, is a myth. I was talking about that period from around November/December to March, where Grealish was out with a long-term injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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