London attack March 2017

[Rugeley Villa]

6 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I do find it amusing that those who live in almost 100% white areas with little to no actual Muslim contact have such strong views about the subject and seem to know so much

You're normally better than that Stefan and you normally tear me a new arse. So people living in white areas should not have strong  views and can't know what they are talking about? I assume you live in a Muslim dominated area then for you to know so much about Muslims? 

Over the last few days I've not been offensive in anyway and I've directed my concerns at the extreme side of Islam not peaceful loving Muslims. Just bite the bullet and admit we have a problem because you're a well educated person and to deny there is no problem is just burying your head in the sand. Like I said I think we have more symphaphisers rather than terrorists.

[Rugeley Villa]

8 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

Absolutely.  I believe the conventional thinking in prisons was for a while to separate criminal Islamists in jail from each other but the result was that more non-Muslim offenders would get converted due to the gang mentality.  

An old friend of mine is serving a few years in the nick and when I used to visit him he said they were constantly in his cell trying to convert him. There is a huge problem in our prisons. 

[markavfc40]

6 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

That's a tad unfair  , most people never met Trump doesn't stop them  forming a rather one sided view on him one way or another  

a lot of the examples he gave have happened so even if he's never met a Muslim he does have tv / internet and access to media to be able to form an opinion , same way as someone could form an opinion on many subjects

That is slightly different though isn’t it. Some people judge a whole religion based on the actions of a tiny minority of extremists and vile nut jobs. When people judge Trump they do so from a distance but they are judging one man on his very public actions.

You made a great point yesterday Tony with regard to when the IRA were bombing London and Birmingham and we didn’t persecute Irish people or Catholics we understood that is was a tiny minority of extremists/nut jobs and we didn’t expect every Catholic or Irish person we came into contact with to apologise for them. 99.999 % of people who follow the Islam faith will be absolutely sick to the stomach at what these people are doing in the name of their religion and I don’t need them to tell me that and if others do then they need to have a word with themselves.

One very low level solution to help with all this is better integration and we can all help with that. I have friend at work with children of 4 and 6 and they have never met a Muslim. I was in Bridgnorth last weekend and didn’t come across one person who was ethnic. There are vast swathes of this country that either white people don’t venture into or vice versa that ethnics aren’t seen in. That in itself leads to an unrealistic fear and a tendency to judge based on very little. I know people a generation or two above me and they still fear a 'Paki' moving onto their street and would have kittens if one moved in next door.

I am not sure what point I am trying to make here but I think it is that whilst the Muslim community can do more I think I would rather see it as that we can all do more to get to know each other and understand each other better, leading to much greater integration.

Edited March 24, 2017 by markavfc40

[Brumerican]

31 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

 

One very low level solution to help with all this is better integration and we can all help with that. I have friend at work with children of 4 and 6 and they have never met a Muslim.

Which is why faith schools should be abolished . If you want to fill your kids head with bullshit fairytales then do it on your own time . Children should be spared from religion as much as possible until they have developed the ability to reason. Defining a child by their religion is sickening. 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, a m ole said:

I've read your post again tony and I've misinterpreted it too, sorry chap. I still disagree that it is fair to describe it as point scoring from those who are responding to the original tweet - it is absolutely vile and the kind of attitude that needs to be countered and questioned as strongly as possible, particularly in the climate after an event like this.

I probably didn't word it as well as I intended tbf

i agree with you , the original people were posting the Muslim woman with malice and hate , that's the bit i didn't  make clear in my posts

my point scoring comment was aimed more at the people being instructed ( in some instances )   to respond with the photo of the man without any regard to context or that individual 

[Davkaus]

Is it me, or is the media reaction to one nutter and a handful of casualties a bit of an overreaction?

 

[sexbelowsound]

Often the impact of human tragedies like this are quite difficult to comprehend. My friend at work is close friends with the partner of the lady that was killed. When you hear about who she was and who she has left behind it really hammers home just how tragic incidents like this are.

[MakemineVanilla]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

That is slightly different though isn’t it. Some people judge a whole religion based on the actions of a tiny minority of extremists and vile nut jobs. When people judge Trump they do so from a distance but they are judging one man on his very public actions.

 

It is the same.

Trump is judged by his opinions.

Trump judges Muslims by the extreme opinions they reveal when they answer polls about whether they think honour-killings and killing civilians is sometimes justified.

The polls reveal that in predominantly Muslim countries, a majority or a substantial proportion of the population think these things are sometimes justifiable.

Ultimately, the question is whether people should be judged by their opinions or not.

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

That is slightly different though isn’t it. Some people judge a whole religion based on the actions of a tiny minority of extremists and vile nut jobs. When people judge Trump they do so from a distance but they are judging one man on his very public actions.

You made a great point yesterday Tony with regard to when the IRA were bombing London and Birmingham and we didn’t persecute Irish people or Catholics we understood that is was a tiny minority of extremists/nut jobs and we didn’t expect every Catholic or Irish person we came into contact with to apologise for them. 99.999 % of people who follow the Islam faith will be absolutely sick to the stomach at what these people are doing in the name of their religion and I don’t need them to tell me that and if others do then they need to have a word with themselves.

One very low level solution to help with all this is better integration and we can all help with that. I have friend at work with children of 4 and 6 and they have never met a Muslim. I was in Bridgnorth last weekend and didn’t come across one person who was ethnic. There are vast swathes of this country that either white people don’t venture into or vice versa that ethnics aren’t seen in. That in itself leads to an unrealistic fear and a tendency to judge based on very little. I know people a generation or two above me and they still fear a 'Paki' moving onto their street and would have kittens if one moved in next door.

I am not sure what point I am trying to make here but I think it is that whilst the Muslim community can do more I think I would rather see it as that we can all do more to get to know each other and understand each other better, leading to much greater integration.

I agree some people are judging a whole religion on the actions of a few , but i didn't read RV as doing that in his posts , hence my "tad unfair" comment ...I  just gave a crap analogy 

integration is an interesting one , put a mosque in every town and you'll get people complaining the muslims are trying to conquer us and impose their will ... put them more into a close community like Luton and people complain they are trying to make the UK like Luton !!! 

 my Muslim friends all dress like me , drink beer like me  , watch football like me and don't appear to pray or even believe ... arguably they are Muslim in name only , it seems to me to a degree that by integration we seem to mean don't be Muslim or if you do then go and be Muslim somewhere else 

 

[Chindie]

39 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Is it me, or is the media reaction to one nutter and a handful of casualties a bit of an overreaction?

 

That's what terrorism aims to achieve. It projects it's impact beyond the actual action.

Had this been in different circumstances to the one assumed (he was severely mentally disturbed, or had a Glasgow style loss of control for whatever reason) it's a tragedy that gets some headlines for a couple of days and then again in a year after an enquiry. But the terror link makes it headline bait and plays into the hands of the perpetrators and those that wish to use it to their own ends.

[StefanAVFC]

49 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Is it me, or is the media reaction to one nutter and a handful of casualties a bit of an overreaction?

 

Yep. And as Chindie says, it's exactly what they want. It's unbelievably sad but more die in the UK every hour from more preventable things. So for such a reaction to be stirred up, particularly from our right wing media, plays into their hands.

It's why the Muslim ban in the US is so stupid. Yes, people die at the hands of terrorists, and yes it's undeniably awful, but people die of so many other things on a daily basis of much more preventable things. For example, in the brains of Trump supporters, it's constitutional to stop Muslims from certain countries travelling to the US, but it's unconstitutional to put gun controls in place.

I think all this 'we have a problem' or 'we have a soft underbelly' is a load of bollocks. In the UK, how many people have died from Muslim terrorist attacks in the last 15 years? I'm not saying we live in an entirely safe time, but your chances of being killed by a terrorist are much lower than the 70s/80s for example, regardless of what a load of mouth breathers on Twiiter, or anyone else might say.

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

One very low level solution to help with all this is better integration and we can all help with that. I have friend at work with children of 4 and 6 and they have never met a Muslim. I was in Bridgnorth last weekend and didn’t come across one person who was ethnic. There are vast swathes of this country that either white people don’t venture into or vice versa that ethnics aren’t seen in. That in itself leads to an unrealistic fear and a tendency to judge based on very little. I know people a generation or two above me and they still fear a 'Paki' moving onto their street and would have kittens if one moved in next door.

Spot on.

 

[Genie]

16 minutes ago, Chindie said:

That's what terrorism aims to achieve. It projects it's impact beyond the actual action.

Had this been in different circumstances to the one assumed (he was severely mentally disturbed, or had a Glasgow style loss of control for whatever reason) it's a tragedy that gets some headlines for a couple of days and then again in a year after an enquiry. But the terror link makes it headline bait and plays into the hands of the perpetrators and those that wish to use it to their own ends.

I could be wrong with my dates here but I'm pretty sure that the same day 'hero' Lee Rigby was attacked in London by 2 dark skinned men Dale Cregan was in court for luring 2 police officers to his house with a fake burgulary complaint and then shot them and blew them up on the door step with grenades. The police officers killed in the line of their work and Lee on his way back from the chippy.

Its odd years later 1 of these tragic incidents still gets so many headlines and the other nothing at all. I wonder if Dale was a religious convert it would be different?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Genie

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

So people living in white areas should not have strong  views and can't know what they are talking about? I assume you live in a Muslim dominated area then for you to know so much about Muslims? 

Over the last few days I've not been offensive in anyway and I've directed my concerns at the extreme side of Islam not peaceful loving Muslims. Just bite the bullet and admit we have a problem because you're a well educated person and to deny there is no problem is just burying your head in the sand. Like I said I think we have more symphaphisers rather than terrorists.

I think the point that was made (not particularly well) is that for people who live and work in areas where there is more of a mix of different peoples, then the general attitude in those areas to immigrants and immigration and so on is a lot more tolerant and supportiv, because people there actually experience interacting with Muslims / Jews / Chinese / African.....heritage folk. And it's fine and good.

So I think the point is that for people who don't live or work in those areas, there's maybe something to take form that, that their counterparts who do get the chance kind of report that it's mostly all fine and nothing to be feared.

Everyone's entitled to their views, but generally more the information people have, the better informed and balanced their judgements and views are.

That said, you're right that there is a problem with aspects of Islamicism. Across the world there are maybe getting on for a million Islamicalists who think that burning people with acid, chopping off heads, killing unbelievers, mowing down people with cars, random murder and establishing an Islamic state, adhering to a warped intepretation of the Quran and all the rest of it is somehow "God's will". I mean that's just mental. And they've got supporters in Qatar, Saudi, Iraq and elsewhere.

In the UK there are apparently 3000 people on MI5's list of nutjobs, or suspected nutjobs, and a fair percentage of those will be Muslim nutters. 60 million people live here, mind. so around 1 in 20,000 people are thought to present a potential risk of one sort or another - whether Irish/Animal Rights/Islamic/Russian/Fracking/....

[TrentVilla]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

I could be wrong with my dates here but I'm pretty sure that the same day 'hero' Lee Rigby was attacked in London by 2 dark skinned men Dale Cregan was in court for luring 2 police officers to his house with a fake burgulary complaint and then shot them and blew them up on the door step with grenades. The police officers killed in the line of their work and Lee on his way back from the chippy.

Its odd years later 1 of these tragic incidents still gets so many headlines and the other nothing at all. I wonder if Dale was a religious convert it would be different?

But they are different.

The threat (exaggerated or otherwise) of those directed by or inspired by ISIS and the mantra of extremist Islamic docterine didn't end with the murder of Lee Rigby.

However the threat posed by Dale Cregan ended with his incarceration.

I think the two are entirely different.

[Keyblade]

13 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Yep. And as Chindie says, it's exactly what they want. It's unbelievably sad but more die in the UK every hour from more preventable things. So for such a reaction to be stirred up, particularly from our right wing media, plays into their hands.

It's why the Muslim ban in the US is so stupid. Yes, people die at the hands of terrorists, and yes it's undeniably awful, but people die of so many other things on a daily basis of much more preventable things. For example, in the brains of Trump supporters, it's constitutional to stop Muslims from certain countries travelling to the US, but it's unconstitutional to put gun controls in place.

I think all this 'we have a problem' or 'we have a soft underbelly' is a load of bollocks. In the UK, how many people have died from Muslim terrorist attacks in the last 15 years? I'm not saying we live in an entirely safe time, but your chances of being killed by a terrorist are much lower than the 70s/80s for example, regardless of what a load of mouth breathers on Twiiter, or anyone else might say.

Spot on.

 

You can't even ban the guy responsible, he's a Caribbean British convert. Unless you want to use a time machine and go 1 or 2 centuries back to ban his ancestors.

A good example of a terror attack not committed by a Muslim getting relatively fleeting coverage was the Quebec attack from a couple of months ago. It got 1 maybe 2 days tops of coverage and then everyone moved on quickly. I know it's a different country but I'm sure had it happened in Britain it would have been the same.

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

But they are different.

The threat (exaggerated or otherwise) of those directed by or inspired by ISIS and the mantra of extremist Islamic docterine didn't end with the murder of Lee Rigby.

However the threat posed by Dale Cregan ended with his incarceration.

I think the two are entirely different.

It was also about how the victims are remembered, nobody has a clue about who those police officers were yet LR is one of the greatest heros of this generation. I find that odd. 

[markavfc40]

44 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 it seems to me to a degree that by integration we seem to mean don't be Muslim or if you do then go and be Muslim somewhere else 

 

But that is where the problem lies. I used the example of my friend who has children who have never come across a Muslim person. Now is it for him to wait until one starts to go to his children’s school, highly unlikely given where he lives, or is it for him to take his children to a park in an area where there will be Muslim children playing.

I get the argument about getting rid of faith schools and in many ways agree with it but I am more talking about what we can all do individually. You seem to have a number of Muslim friends and don’t have that barrier or fear of the unknown because of it and haven’t therefore made judgements based on the actions of the nut jobs you hear about in the media but many people don’t have that interaction. Maybe those of us in that situation need to be proactive in doing something about that.

[TrentVilla]

5 minutes ago, Genie said:

It was also about how the victims are remembered, nobody has a clue about who those police officers were yet LR is one of the greatest heros of this generation. I find that odd. 

How the victims are remembered is an entirely different point. 

Yes Lee Rigby's name is in the national consciousness, no question. But 'one of the greatest hero's of this generation' sorry but that is a little bit ridiculous.

His name is well known because of the horrific nature of the event, a little like James Bulger's. Countless children have been killed since but some events are so shocking, so horrible that they simply have more lasting effect on memory.

 

[lapal_fan]

21 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

How the victims are remembered is an entirely different point. 

Yes Lee Rigby's name is in the national consciousness, no question. But 'one of the greatest hero's of this generation' sorry but that is a little bit ridiculous.

His name is well known because of the horrific nature of the event, a little like James Bulger's. Countless children have been killed since but some events are so shocking, so horrible that they simply have more lasting effect on memory.

 

And absolutely no one remembers when I twisted my ankle a few months ago, and trust me, that really hurt.   

(He's right y'know).

[tonyh29]

51 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

In the UK, how many people have died from Muslim terrorist attacks in the last 15 years? I'm not saying we live in an entirely safe time, but your chances of being killed by a terrorist are much lower than the 70s/80s for example, regardless of what a load of mouth breathers on Twiiter, or anyone else might say.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of what you say  but Isn't that partly because we have a counter terrorism unit that is monitoring and preventing attacks rather than it being safer than the 70's/80's ? 

how many more people could have died from terrorist attacks without this prevention ?