Chindie Posted March 25, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2017 As a complete aside, I was a bit irritated to see Frank Gardner on the Beeb go on and on about there 'being no such thing as a lone wolf', when everything seemed to point to it being a lone actor in the first instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 7 hours ago, snowychap said: Are you? Unless I'm reading things upside down then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 There has been another incident of a car mowing down people in Islington north London. Not sure if it was influenced by the Westminster attack or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: Unless I'm reading things upside down then yes. Well, the current police position according to the BBC seems to be "We still believe that Masood acted alone on the day and there is no information or intelligence to suggest there are further attacks planned". Where is your definitely-not-upside-down information coming from? Edited March 26, 2017 by ml1dch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Well, the current police position according to the BBC seems to be "We still believe that Masood acted alone on the day and there is no information or intelligence to suggest there are further attacks planned". Where is your definitely-not-upside-down information coming from? Yes I've read that this morning. I think it was the independent news feed. Ok if he acted alone and there are no further plans of attack which is normal anyway but I'd still say it was terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: Yes I've read that this morning. I think it was the independent news feed. Ok if he acted alone and there are no further plans of attack which is normal anyway but I'd still say it was terrorism. Well it's only terrorism if there is/was a political motivation, currently the motive remains a mystery. So technically it isn't. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 4 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: Unless I'm reading things upside down then yes. You don't appear to be posting what everyone else is seeing reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Just now, snowychap said: You don't appear to be posting what everyone else is seeing reported. I've just read a few pieces which said other people may have been involved, although I have read today that the BBC has quoted the police saying he acted alone. I could care never to Islam and go out and kill or injure a few people and Isis would probably declare me a soldier of the Islamic state, so I'm convinced now that he had nothing to do with Isis but I just find it hard to believe that this wasn't done in the name of his religion. Reading more about him today and regardless of what he did in London the guy was an absolute nut job by all accounts and was prone to violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: Well it's only terrorism if there is/was a political motivation, currently the motive remains a mystery. So technically it isn't. All the papers and news are saying otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 38 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: All the papers and news are saying otherwise Which means they are wrong. I mean it might end up being demonstrated to be an act of terrorism but right now it hasn't been so they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 26, 2017 Administrator Share Posted March 26, 2017 54 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: All the papers and news are saying otherwise You shouldn't blindly trust anyone. Follow the evidence. There is no evidence that this was anything to do with religion. That doesn't mean that we can't change our minds as more (or better) evidence becomes available. At the moment there is insufficient evidence to accept that claim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: All the papers and news are saying otherwise The papers are saying it, so it must be true then. Don't let the media dictate how you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 3 hours ago, limpid said: You shouldn't blindly trust anyone. Follow the evidence. There is no evidence that this was anything to do with religion. That doesn't mean that we can't change our minds as more (or better) evidence becomes available. At the moment there is insufficient evidence to accept that claim. The difficulty is that all the "evidence" we receive is via the media. So while your advice is obviously absolutely sound, we're presented with information via an intermediary, be it TV, radio, Internet, Newspapers, whatever. What we do know is that the murderer followed very very closely a "model" of other attacks which have been confirmed as Islamist terrorism. The only difference is he was older than the "normal" Islamic nutters. There is this circumstantial evidence it was to do with warped religious fanaticism. Clearly the authorities rightly don't want idiots taking "reprisals" against peaceful, decent, muslim people and so playing down religionist aspects is wise. It's actually heartening to see so many good deeds, so many condemnations from people, including Muslim speakers and organisations. It seems that there's been a realisation that condemnation from mainstream muslim society is ultimately helpful - of course it shouldn't be demanded or required, it should be taken as read, but it's been volunteered and that's great. Casting these peckerheads out from the religion they twist is essential in order to prevent repeats. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 26, 2017 Administrator Share Posted March 26, 2017 24 minutes ago, blandy said: The difficulty is that all the "evidence" we receive is via the media. So while your advice is obviously absolutely sound, we're presented with information via an intermediary, be it TV, radio, Internet, Newspapers, whatever. It's important to question what they are basing it on. It's like stories about football - we want to see quotes from named people, not something the reporter made up. When a newspaper says something the reader has to look and see what they are basing their comments on. It's not difficult but it takes more effort. More and more people seem to read a headline and don't read the article, let alone actually analyse what it says. On this board we even have a meme for this - ITSOTP. 28 minutes ago, blandy said: It's actually heartening to see so many good deeds, so many condemnations from people, including Muslim speakers and organisations. It seems that there's been a realisation that condemnation from mainstream muslim society is ultimately helpful - of course it shouldn't be demanded or required, it should be taken as read, but it's been volunteered and that's great. Casting these peckerheads out from the religion they twist is essential in order to prevent repeats. Agreed. The rush (by the media) to label this attack as religiously motivated solely because of the perpetrator's adopted religion is concerning. It's a large leap when made without evidence. Even if it is a copy cat from other attacks, that only means he was copying the act, not the motivation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 34 minutes ago, limpid said: It's a large leap when made without evidence. It would be if there were none. I suspect most people will think this attack was a religionist based motive, for the reason that it follows exactly the same pattern as a number of other attacks recently on the continent. A loser and petty criminal, convert to Islam, spent time in Jail (where there's a real issue with radical efftards), then duplicated the method followed by other confirmed islamic inadequates to do an attack. There's no issue of mental health recorded. There are two probable, possible motives - Islamic terror or er, a muslim copying Islamic terror...which makes it to most people islamic terror. It doesn't need media narratives really to lead people to that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 26, 2017 Administrator Share Posted March 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, blandy said: There are two probable, possible motives - Islamic terror or er, a muslim copying Islamic terror...which makes it to most people islamic terror. You've missed a complete category of motives - mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 37 minutes ago, limpid said: You've missed a complete category of motives - mental illness. I'm not sure that would be a motive. I mean it's a given when someone finds reason or justification for those actions there is a mental illness at some level. I'm not though sure mental illness should be classed as a motive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 In any case, one of those arrested in Manchester in connection with the attack is currently on Police bail. While another man has been arrested in Birmingham and is being held on suspicion of preparing for an act of terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 26, 2017 Administrator Share Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I'm not sure that would be a motive. I mean it's a given when someone finds reason or justification for those actions there is a mental illness at some level. I'm not though sure mental illness should be classed as a motive. But was it a schizophrenic episode? Or PTSD from his time in prison. Or depression. Or any of the other (huge) spectrum of disorders. Edited March 26, 2017 by limpid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2017 Just now, limpid said: But it was a schizophrenic episode. Or PTSD from his time in prison. Or depression. Or any of the other (huge) spectrum of disorders. Was it? You know that how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts